Accepted Dart Hobby Breeding terminology....

Philsuma · 07-06-2009, 11:55 PM

I WAS going to include the word "sex" in the thread title.....but thought better of it, obviously....

In order of importance:

1. "Probable" pair - This is a term used to describe a sexual pair of frogs based solely on the male calling and a possible female due to physical characteristics / round body shape , no calling, respsonse to male ect. 85% chance of a sexual pair.

2. " Proven" pair - 100% sexed pair due to egg laying. The important part here is not just that both frogs are correctly sexed - it's the fact that they are so healthy and compatable, that they have reproduced.

Thoughts? ...... Is 85% a fair, accepted number for probable in our hobby? I have heard it referred to as such from numerous breeders.

Erick · 07-08-2009, 12:43 PM

Phil,
Personally, I would consider 85% fairly generous. Most hobbyists typically do not have enough resources such as confirmed sexed adults of the same breed/morph to observe the dynamics that is "typically" (and I'm still hesitant to use this word) the best indicator to determine sex. I would even bring down probable guesses to around 50% (which is what it really is, a guess) with a margin of 10% if physical attributes are noticeable. Blown away to 100% if calling occurs, but only for that animal and NOT the pair. Even the most seasoned hobbyist and experienced breeder can make that mistake. With thumbs/pumilio, such is the case. With tincs, that number goes up significantly, and with terribilis/bicolor... it goes down, even with using the calling method. That's just from my experiences.

Just my two cents.

Erick

joshsfrogs · 07-08-2009, 02:11 PM

Proven pair should be a pair that produces tadpoles. Females can (and do) lay eggs without a male. You should also ask if any of the tads ever morphed out.

I would also add that a probable pair has to be 6 months old for thumbnails and a year old for larger frogs. "Sexed" frogs younger than this are just guesses.

atlfrog · 07-09-2009, 11:01 AM

I am glad you brought this up as the terms can be used very loosely in the hobby. Even I just learned a little more than what I knew before. LOL

"Proven pair should be a pair that produces tadpoles. Females can (and do) lay eggs without a male. You should also ask if any of the tads ever morphed out."

I always thought it was due to egg laying (male and female paired). Interesting.

Knoxter · 07-09-2009, 01:05 PM

Hey Phi,

When I first read you post I too thought 85% was generous, but not unreasonable. But, after thinking about it for a while, and the fact that we cannot ignore what the guys are saying about the females being able to lay eggs without males, I think the term "Probable" is the real issue we are dealing with here. Think about it, if you have a pair of frogs, with a calling male, and fat "probable" female, then the non calling frog is really only 50/50 shot on what' the sex. So my answer would be to only label it 50% if you wanted to put a number on it. Now with that being said, I still think the frogger's experience should be taken into consideration.

For example, I obtained a Probable/Possible pair of gold dust pums a few months ago from Sean Stewart. One frog occasionally calls (short chirps, I believe to be territorial), and the other is really fat (so, is it a female, or a fat male?). I am still not sure. I watch their behavior and listen to their calls all the time. But it is still very hard to be sure.

Check this out. I have 7 groups of pumilio tanks. The males in all of the groups, but 2, call all the time, like crazy. Everyday, all day. The two tanks that are iffy, are the "Probable" pair of gold dust I got from Sean, which has at least a male, but not sure about the female, and a "Probable" pair of gold El Dorado" I got from Erick. In the pair I got from Erick, the male doesn't call as often as my other male pumilio, but when he does, it's the same kind of call as the others. Loud and continuous, as if calling to the female. Based on what I have observed in both pairs and my experience, it seems like it's more likely that the El Dorado are more likey to be a sexed pair. I honesty believe the two gold dust pumilio may be two males. But, based on Sean's experience (and reading somewhere that it sometimes takes pairs years to get started) I will be patient and wait.

Sorry, I got a little off track there, but as far as a response to what Phil originally posted, I don't think there should be a percentage added into the equation. It's just safer to label "Possible/Probable" to pairs of frogs that have a calling male and fat (non-calling) female, and only add the label "Proven" to pairs that have laid eggs AND there is a calling male. Fair enough? (This would have been a great topic for my Critical Thinking class)

Marc

Also Phil-There would have been all types of hits from Google searches if you would have added "Sex" to the thread title. The threads get indexed pretty quick, and I am sure that one would have made the cut. That's pretty funny.

Philsuma · 07-09-2009, 03:11 PM

Good discussion guys....very salient points.

When we say " Proven" and egg laying.....we should absolutely mean FERTILIZED eggs. If a breeder wants to include F1 status of progeny to his for sale animals as an addition, fine......but shall we say, proven is a standard for both sexes, reproducing viable eggs. SLS and fully raised froglets not withstanding.

I just don't think that the hobby can NOT have a lesser catagory such as probable. I totally agree that some people are always going to be unscupulous and blatently be either deceptive or ignorant and uniformed and as a result, they buyer and the hobby will suffer.

We have physical characteristics to define sexes, and sexual dimoprhism is much easier to detect in some species than others. We also have behaviour characteristics that are fairly good indicators as well.

I just see a lot of breeders using the "probable" term and some buyers getting upset when the probable pair turns out to be 2 males.

I think probable should only be applied to animals by experienced hobbyists and should be WAY more than 50%.

But I'm still no closer to coming up with a viable solution to the labeling problem that we seem to have....

07-06-2009, 11:55 PM	#1 (permalink)
Philsuma Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Harrisburg PA...AND...Ft Lauderdale Florida Posts: 115	Accepted Dart Hobby Breeding terminology.... I WAS going to include the word "sex" in the thread title.....but thought better of it, obviously.... In order of importance: 1. "Probable" pair - This is a term used to describe a sexual pair of frogs based solely on the male calling and a possible female due to physical characteristics / round body shape , no calling, respsonse to male ect. 85% chance of a sexual pair. 2. " Proven" pair - 100% sexed pair due to egg laying. The important part here is not just that both frogs are correctly sexed - it's the fact that they are so healthy and compatable, that they have reproduced. Thoughts? ...... Is 85% a fair, accepted number for probable in our hobby? I have heard it referred to as such from numerous breeders. __________________ Heading down to CR / Panama the end of Nov. PM me if you are interested in going along.

07-08-2009, 12:43 PM	#2 (permalink)
Erick Junior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Metro NYC Posts: 11 Real Name: Erick Gargantiel	Phil, Personally, I would consider 85% fairly generous. Most hobbyists typically do not have enough resources such as confirmed sexed adults of the same breed/morph to observe the dynamics that is "typically" (and I'm still hesitant to use this word) the best indicator to determine sex. I would even bring down probable guesses to around 50% (which is what it really is, a guess) with a margin of 10% if physical attributes are noticeable. Blown away to 100% if calling occurs, but only for that animal and NOT the pair. Even the most seasoned hobbyist and experienced breeder can make that mistake. With thumbs/pumilio, such is the case. With tincs, that number goes up significantly, and with terribilis/bicolor... it goes down, even with using the calling method. That's just from my experiences. Just my two cents. Erick __________________ MY FROGS ON FLICKR Last edited by Erick; 07-08-2009 at 12:55 PM..

07-08-2009, 02:11 PM	#3 (permalink)
joshsfrogs Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Owosso, MI Posts: 30 Real Name: Joshua Willard	Proven pair should be a pair that produces tadpoles. Females can (and do) lay eggs without a male. You should also ask if any of the tads ever morphed out. I would also add that a probable pair has to be 6 months old for thumbnails and a year old for larger frogs. "Sexed" frogs younger than this are just guesses. __________________ www.JoshsFrogs.com - Unsurpassed Quality and same day shipping! Everything you need in one store.

07-09-2009, 11:01 AM	#4 (permalink)
atlfrog Site Sponsor Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: ATL, GA, USA Posts: 396 Real Name: Matthew "Merek" Preferred.	I am glad you brought this up as the terms can be used very loosely in the hobby. Even I just learned a little more than what I knew before. LOL "Proven pair should be a pair that produces tadpoles. Females can (and do) lay eggs without a male. You should also ask if any of the tads ever morphed out." I always thought it was due to egg laying (male and female paired). Interesting. __________________ Merek Matthew Cardew :: ATLFROG.com HTTP://www.blogtalkradio.com/reptilian-fish Last edited by atlfrog; 07-09-2009 at 11:04 AM..

07-09-2009, 01:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
Knoxter Administrator/SiteOwner Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: USA Posts: 430 Real Name: Marc Knox	Hey Phi, When I first read you post I too thought 85% was generous, but not unreasonable. But, after thinking about it for a while, and the fact that we cannot ignore what the guys are saying about the females being able to lay eggs without males, I think the term "Probable" is the real issue we are dealing with here. Think about it, if you have a pair of frogs, with a calling male, and fat "probable" female, then the non calling frog is really only 50/50 shot on what' the sex. So my answer would be to only label it 50% if you wanted to put a number on it. Now with that being said, I still think the frogger's experience should be taken into consideration. For example, I obtained a Probable/Possible pair of gold dust pums a few months ago from Sean Stewart. One frog occasionally calls (short chirps, I believe to be territorial), and the other is really fat (so, is it a female, or a fat male?). I am still not sure. I watch their behavior and listen to their calls all the time. But it is still very hard to be sure. Check this out. I have 7 groups of pumilio tanks. The males in all of the groups, but 2, call all the time, like crazy. Everyday, all day. The two tanks that are iffy, are the "Probable" pair of gold dust I got from Sean, which has at least a male, but not sure about the female, and a "Probable" pair of gold El Dorado" I got from Erick. In the pair I got from Erick, the male doesn't call as often as my other male pumilio, but when he does, it's the same kind of call as the others. Loud and continuous, as if calling to the female. Based on what I have observed in both pairs and my experience, it seems like it's more likely that the El Dorado are more likey to be a sexed pair. I honesty believe the two gold dust pumilio may be two males. But, based on Sean's experience (and reading somewhere that it sometimes takes pairs years to get started) I will be patient and wait. Sorry, I got a little off track there, but as far as a response to what Phil originally posted, I don't think there should be a percentage added into the equation. It's just safer to label "Possible/Probable" to pairs of frogs that have a calling male and fat (non-calling) female, and only add the label "Proven" to pairs that have laid eggs AND there is a calling male. Fair enough? (This would have been a great topic for my Critical Thinking class) Marc Also Phil-There would have been all types of hits from Google searches if you would have added "Sex" to the thread title. The threads get indexed pretty quick, and I am sure that one would have made the cut. That's pretty funny. __________________ Marc My frogs- Vanzolini, El Dorado (ong&gold), Cayo de Agua, Almerante, Gold Dust, Yuris, Imis, Inters, Taras, O Lamasi, Iquitos Vents, Varis, SI. I appreciate everyone here. Without you, there would be no DFF. Thank you for your support.

07-09-2009, 03:11 PM	#6 (permalink)
Philsuma Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Harrisburg PA...AND...Ft Lauderdale Florida Posts: 115	Good discussion guys....very salient points. When we say " Proven" and egg laying.....we should absolutely mean FERTILIZED eggs. If a breeder wants to include F1 status of progeny to his for sale animals as an addition, fine......but shall we say, proven is a standard for both sexes, reproducing viable eggs. SLS and fully raised froglets not withstanding. I just don't think that the hobby can NOT have a lesser catagory such as probable. I totally agree that some people are always going to be unscupulous and blatently be either deceptive or ignorant and uniformed and as a result, they buyer and the hobby will suffer. We have physical characteristics to define sexes, and sexual dimoprhism is much easier to detect in some species than others. We also have behaviour characteristics that are fairly good indicators as well. I just see a lot of breeders using the "probable" term and some buyers getting upset when the probable pair turns out to be 2 males. I think probable should only be applied to animals by experienced hobbyists and should be WAY more than 50%. But I'm still no closer to coming up with a viable solution to the labeling problem that we seem to have.... __________________ Heading down to CR / Panama the end of Nov. PM me if you are interested in going along.

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