[atlfrog]

Well I did this on another forum and well I will do this again. And no Phil, I will not make this a poll this time. I was just curious to see what people thought about W.C. vs C.B. (Wild Caught vs Captive Breed) species being brought into the country to bred and sold into the hobby. I know this is a controversial issue among many but the polls I have done before out of approximately 115 people, a high number of them said they would buy WC specimens. So what is your take on it? I will express my views once I see some posts. LOL Some of you know me from other forums and know how I feel so I want to know how you feel this time!

[jehitch]

This decision becomes even more troubling as a retailer.

What do we do when customers want field-collected specimens, or species that are not readily available captive-bred on the wholesale market? If we have a blanket refusal to work with field-collected specimens, that will not stop them; potential customers will simply go to my competitors. And my competitors, some being more generalized, may not be able to provide the proper husbandry information and support on the species.

And then I think about the stories I hear from old-timers about $20 blue jeans pumilio being imported by the thousands. Where are they now, other than in the hands of a very few breeders?

If I had been in business then, and refused to carry the WC blue jeans pums, would that have decreased how many were caught and imported? Probably not.

What if I had been in business then and offered blue jeans pums, but made an effort to get them into the hands of breeders more than just keepers? Would there be a larger captive population of them today? Maybe.

I think we have a similar situation now with the generic "farm-raised" pums available now. They have no site data, so are useless for conservation breeding programs. But, is there value in trying to channel at least a portion of what's already being imported into the hands of hobbyist breeders, to try and establish a sustainable captive bred population of pretty red or orange mutt frogs for the pet trade?

I'm not sure. But, that's the compromise we reached. Our customers demanded pumilo, but we usually can't get CB specimens at a price that allows the margin we need. So, we buy small lots of "farm-raised" stock, and offer them to customers that have demonstrated success with other dart species. By the time we sell them, they've gone through two rounds of dewormer and are fat and healthy, so they offer an inexpensive way to start with pums that doesn't put at risk the limited number of site-data specific specimens important to conservation efforts.

Maybe if we are successful, we can begin offering CB mutt pumilio to the general public that are not yet sophisticated enough to care about site data. And maybe it will reduce the demand for WC pumilio (at least those consumed by the general pet trade). And maybe it will spark an interest in our customers to become more interested in conservation efforts and lead them to begin working in conservation-based breeding programs.

But then again, maybe I'm just rationalizing so I can pay the rent?

___
Jim

[socaled]

If I had the chance I would buy WC just because they are in my opinion a challenge to care for because of where they originated from..... I'm not for, though, a quick sale on the market for WC... I would prefer that the specimen was already quarantined and acclimated to the tank life... I know many would disagree but I think having a Wild caught frog would only make you want to take care of it better than where it once was... But then again I don't go looking for WC..... Just a side note I know people that buy WC panther chameleons so they can start they're own bloodline of Chams I would not doubt that people can and will do that with any other animals including frogs.... This is just my honest opinion so I hope no one gets upset at it.

-Angeles

[Philsuma]

There are polls here too, huh?

Well....I was in retail animal sales for a few. Produced a lot of exotic animals, especially geckos way back and have been immersed in the dart frog hobby for 5 years now.

My philosophy with any animal, has always been;

1. Support your LOCAL breeder as long as he is respectable and cool, of course. Buy ANYTHING that you can get CB from your local contacts first. That ensures pockets of sustainable hobbyists and fantastic customer service. There is also NOTHING like being able to cherry pick or hand select your own frog!

I have been know to throw in extra insect cultures on a whim and many many additional frogs or tadpoles to my local friends.

2. IF you cannot obtain local CB animals and must resort to WC or FR animals....make sure you research the source. Be VERY wary of Kingsnake.com or certain Florida importers. Reptile shows are decent but beware of the vendors that are really Jobbers and re-sellers....not true hobbyists.

[atlfrog]

I took too long to post...lol...so here it is anyway...

Since you started my thread off well I will go ahead and post how I feel. There are several areas and aspects to this conversation and unfortunately the good and bad almost equal each other out. What I mean by this is that I do not think there will be any common ground per say for some on this issue. Some swear they will never buy any, and others who would. I lay in between. Jim, I can see your point straight through and through, but here's how I feel on it. Almost all species of animals have been wild caught at one time. In order to get them into the market to become captive bred they have to be imported here and keepers/breeders/professionals/etc. have to be able to breed enough to settle the demands in the trade. Now before anyone gets heated and wants to tear me a new @sshole, please read on. I think that there is some sort of common ground that can be met and standards for shipping in animals must change. If it means the price of animal goes up because the guaranteed success of the animal being imported is increased then maybe that should happen. Many animals are brought here in crates, and most animals don't make the long and stressful journey here in conditions where they are not taken care of well (this is an opinion not fact). This is how the trade is. Do I like it, hell no. I do have some wild caught specimens here at my house, not in dart frogs but as in tree frogs. My peacocks are almost impossible to breed in captivity due to the lack of knowledge and know how know on the internet or outside of zoos (They might have been bread accidentally but not a stable population enough to supply a demand.). At the moment mine are calling, although no known records have been kept on this frog in regards to breeding behavior as I know, as an ASN member of TWI, I am studying this frog and recording data on them. I will have these frogs breeding all it takes is time. Now I know this is a bit off topic but here's the thing. It is cheaper to get these frogs imported rather than spend thousands of dollars trying to figure out how these frogs breed or how to get them into the market after it has been figured out. If one person figures it out, and it is not an easy task for others to follow then they won't try. This is the same in dart frogs and other animals that come in Wild Caught. It is less expensive to import them here rather than breed and distribute. That is the problem.

So where does one go from here. I am not sure how to answer. In my option there is a time and place to buy a W. C. Specimen. If the option is available to buy captive bred then that should be the route taken because theoretically this will help out the breeders and small/large businesses out there and decrease the amount imported coming in. BUT here's the problem, even if there is one animal that seems to make it out of that cycle another will take its place due to trends in the market and demands of its people.

I have to be honest, the average citizen does not ask if an animal is W. C. or C. B. when they walk into a pet shop or store and if they do I would presume they are in the hobby for awhile and know what they are doing. The ones who buy on impulse and the ones who just want it because of color or what the animal happens to be.

So where does this lie for importing/exporting/issues with W.C. vs C. B. it's all a matter of option and all should be regulated in some way to keep the checks and balances in regards to population controls from where they are being imported from and how they are sent here. I do not see a problem with buying W. C. species as long as it is not destroying the populations it has left behind. IT IS KEY to know where you are getting your frogs from, how they are being shipped and the reputation of the people you are receiving these animals from because not all animals die horrible deaths in crates on long journeys. Yes there is some loss but not terrible. It depends on who is sending them and if they are reputable enough to do business with.

PS: If I couldn't get my hands on certain species of amphibians here in the U. S. new morphs or new amphibians would not be in the trade and average joes like me couldn't figure out how to breed rare animals and help zoos, etc. in the education in conserving these animals for the future. Like I said, there are a lot of good things and a lot of bad. Know who you are dealing with and theoretically these people will disappear, but of course where their is one stupid f*cker, there will be another.

---------- Post added at 04:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:06 PM ----------

Originally Posted by socaled

If I had the chance I would buy WC just because they are in my opinion a challenge to care for because of where they originated from..... I'm not for, though, a quick sale on the market for WC... I would prefer that the specimen was already quarantined and acclimated to the tank life... I know many would disagree but I think having a Wild caught frog would only make you want to take care of it better than where it once was... But then again I don't go looking for WC..... Just a side note I know people that buy WC panther chameleons so they can start they're own bloodline of Chams I would not doubt that people can and will do that with any other animals including frogs.... This is just my honest opinion so I hope no one gets upset at it.

-Angeles

There is no reason why someone would get upset over that. At least not me in the issue of buying for new bloodlines. I would do the same thing, but taking care of animals should always be the same and consistent. Shoot why buy W. C. Chams! Just go visit Philisuma in FL they have them wild there now. LOL

[atlfrog]

Wow none of the post junkies, like myself, want to say anything! LOL But seriously, I am surprised this thread went dead so quickly. Then again, there isn't 15000 members just yet either. lol

[socaled]

I know what you mean merek some members are still shy to post their opinion but you know many have a whole paragraph in their heads about this topic... I do agree that buying CB is a lot better for preserving the animals in their natural habitat....

-Angeles

[Socalsam]

Thats funny Socaled cause thats true about me. I have my opinion but didn't want to really type a long paragraph but since you called me out . I will not write a paragraph but say i support both CB and WC. You really cant have one without the other. Just my 2 cents

[Rich Frye]

There really is no simple 'WC always bad thing, CB always good " thing. Simply put, it depends on how the animals were collected and a number of other important factors. Were they collected responsibly from a sustaining population? Were they collected within the intent of the law? How were they shipped? How they were handled after the import? Who were the frogs sold to? Were those buyers actually experienced enough to work with the WCs. Were the animals quarantined so as to not spread potential pathogens (such as rapid Chytrid) ? Were there already a glut of this species already dieing in captivity, making the imports nothing more than a never ending disposable frog? Have the importers brought in so many that it is economical to not worry about a death or six?
The bottom line, much as with the CB that we already have in the hobby, it depends on a number of factors with those involved with bringing the animals in. There are plenty of dealers I know of who pretty much only deal (wholesale/re-sell) with large numbers of CBs, who I would not piss on if they were on fire. While some imports are done correctly. Not nearly as many as I'd like to see, but some are doing it right.
If you want quality, healthy animals with a known pedigree, ethically brought into the U.S. , it is up to you to ask around and get the facts. If the facts are not offered or seem a bit hazy , best to move on. Do we want quality or quantity?

[atlfrog]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

There really is no simple 'WC always bad thing, CB always good " thing. Simply put, it depends on how the animals were collected and a number of other important factors. Were they collected responsibly from a sustaining population? Were they collected within the intent of the law? How were they shipped? How they were handled after the import? Who were the frogs sold to? Were those buyers actually experienced enough to work with the WCs. Were the animals quarantined so as to not spread potential pathogens (such as rapid Chytrid) ? Were there already a glut of this species already dieing in captivity, making the imports nothing more than a never ending disposable frog? Have the importers brought in so many that it is economical to not worry about a death or six?
The bottom line, much as with the CB that we already have in the hobby, it depends on a number of factors with those involved with bringing the animals in. There are plenty of dealers I know of who pretty much only deal (wholesale/re-sell) with large numbers of CBs, who I would not piss on if they were on fire. While some imports are done correctly. Not nearly as many as I'd like to see, but some are doing it right.
If you want quality, healthy animals with a known pedigree, ethically brought into the U.S. , it is up to you to ask around and get the facts. If the facts are not offered or seem a bit hazy , best to move on. Do we want quality or quantity?

Is this the real Rich Frye? LOL Thanks or your opinion. I was hoping someone would give another side to the story. I wanted this thread to be an educational one although everyone posted so far has made an awesome effort to do so.