[Knoxter]

Hey Folks,

I have titled this thread "How do you feel about hybridizing dart frogs" because I would simply like to hear how the members of DFF feel about inter-breeding of different dart frog species and morphs. I have seen this topic discussed/argued in a few other forums, and I would like all the members here, old and new, experienced to beginner, to be able to share their opinions about this specific topic.
All that I ask is that you not only share your opinion, but that you clearly explain why you feel the way you do.

Example: I feel this way about dart frog hybridization.....and this is why....

And seeing as this thread may be referred to in the future, particularly to people new to the hobby, it would be a good idea to share any experiences or information that supports your opinion. Your opinion may influence someone else; at least "back it up".

This is an attempt to allow anyone who reads this thread to know the climate of "This forum" when the topic of dart frog hybridization comes up. While this board has merely a small fraction of the diverse community that make up the dart frog hobby, after reading the thread I would hope that one would have a better understanding of how we feel about hybridizing dart frogs.

[PDF0323]

I have always read these type of threads on other sites, but I would never dare to comment on them. But, here goes. I will start off by saying I would consider myself a well educated beginner, and I only keep two different kinds PDF thumbnail morphs in 55g split. Blue and grey leg vents. They are super easy to keep, extreemly active, and breed like rabbits.

I gotta admit that when I bought them, I wondered why I couldn't just dump them all together in the 55g tank. They were the same species, just different color morphs. Then the more I read up, I realized that it would prob be best to keep the species pure as possible. When I really thought about it, I knew it was wrong to mix the morphs, because i wouldn't intentionally breed my Chocolate Lab with a Black or Gold Lab. Key word being intentionally. With that being said, based on the declining amphibian populations in the world, I believe that one day theses frogs may become ectinct in the wild, and the frogs we have in captivity may be all that is left of these beautiful jewels. So, I think it is important to keep the lines as pure as possible fro that reason.

Lastly, I think inter breeding different species is unacceptable and if it does happen the eggs should be discarded. Unlike mammals, where the embroys are inside the body, eggs can be easily discarded if they are known hybrids, and the adults separated. (Except in controlled scientific experiments, with legit purposes, ie. tricolor toxins in medicinal experiment use)

But, I am still unsure about different color morphs breeding. I watched a video right here on DFF where it was suggested that wild female bastis prefer the brighter morphs (red & orange) males compared to the lighter frogs (yellow & gold dust). So, would I be wrong or would it be frowned upon if I had a trio of bastis (2.1); a female basti (any color) and a Gold Dust/Yellow male and an Orangs/Red male all together and allowed them to breed. After watching that video of the frogs behavior in the wild, I don't know that allowing different color morphs of bastis to breed is so wrong.

Like Marc says, this is just my opinion.... But, I am curious to know what you guys feel about the Bastis morphs mixing. I plan to make them my next frog.

Scott

[Philsuma]

Scott,

Why would you "never dare to comment" on other fourm's mixing threads before?

Sorry to derail....but I really need to know....

[evolvstll]

Against it!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I have commented many times on the other forums in regards to mixing different morphs. With the best knowledge we have the tinc morph (as an example) through time have developed the different morphs in geographical regions. While there are differences expressed phenotipically within a population they still have their own characteristics different from other morphs.
Those that claim to be doing this for scientific study? If you are doing so I suggest taking a trip and exploring the regions where the differnt tinc forms come from. While there start your scientific process and document all of the different morphs, thier ranges, etc........ let us know what the distances between these morphs are and any variations that may exhist in between any specific morphs. Follow this up with the proper genetic material like a PCR machine. Then you can start doing genetic testing and let us know how far back individual morphs branched off and how distant or closely related they are. I would think you can bring this knowledge back to the hobby and even apply it to individual collections and help out TWI with their conservation efforts.
As a hobby we are trying preserve these indivdiual morphs. Any individual specifically saying 'scientifically' producing these individuals is an all out liar and doing it for their own curiosity.
Now with doing a mixed tank with different species (of which I have also commented on)? Although an individual can use the search key and find out how to set up such a tank. It can take several years to learn the husbandry skills for one type of frog. So I feel that after several years in the hobby an individual should have made enough connections to have individuals input into creating such a tank.
A lot of individuals come into the hobby and are gone in a year or two. If these indiduals who at the time felt they were doing the right thing because of other posts about hybrids sell their frogs due to 'life happening', what happens to what can be a confusing hobby?

[PDF0323]

Phil-Not derailed. It's kewl. The reason I never wanted to comment on this topic on DB or DD was because I stll consider myself new at this. It seems like the people that "got into it" quoted this data or that data, and I couldn't do that. All I had was my opinion. (and a Basti question ) I don't mind defending what I say, but what is there to defend when it's just my opinion. The people that posted lengthy comments often made me feel like my opinion did not count, mainly because I was considered a "noob". Kinda made me feel llike, you only been doing this PDF thing a short time, stay in your lane, the adults are talking now. Whoo this is a big boy topic. Sarcasm intended with .

Maybe it's me Phil, but the atmoshphere just seems a little less hostile here. This is a discussion board, not an argument board. And everyon's voice is heard. (for now anyway)

Also-I had a little more time to think about this last night. Actually, I think there are two very different aguments within the hybrid argument. And sometimes we are arguing two very different things. 1. Inter species breeding (leuc x auratus) and 2. Inter color morph breeding (blue auratus x green auratus). I hope I'm not thread jacking.

Scott

[Carlos Pineda]

I completely disagree with hybridizing! This is not your common dog man, Perhaps different morphs or colors may look nice, but in my opinion I don't like it. Man kind is always trying to create, change, or play God in wanting to make something new. If it wasn't intended to be a certain way don't change it. Who knows what the consequences could be? Now its bad enough that our jewels of the rainforest are encountering there own problems of survival in the wild and God forbid we lose them, lets try to maintain what we got here natural and pure. We have so many different species of dart frogs whats to change? I mean man, someone is always dipping into what I feel does not concern them to change! Find something else better to do that is more beneficial to our dart frogs. We as man are the only ones that can help to conserve or help to destroy. Bottom line, leave everything the way it is and nature intended, if its not in the wild leave it that way!

[Erick]

I too, do not dive into this topic much because I think it's been beaten to death and cause unnecessary animosity towards others in this hobby. I think that it's the constant badgering of people who try to instill their own opinions on others that leaves a certain distaste to me. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels this way.
Surely, people are entitled to their opinions but its the way its being put forward in "other" forums that I choose to steer clear of it. I've spoken to Marc, in person about the goals of this forum which is why I joined. I, too, choose to voice my opinion on the matter based, on the fact, there may be a smaller audience in this particular site. Clearly, its not about the experience of the members here but it seems like there's no bull**** here...yet. (and I hope it stays that way)
So Phil, not to single you out, but why do YOU "need to know"? I really have nothing against you and we've conversed on Dendroboard a bit, but its that's the very attitude I speak of. I've seen it there, and Dart Den. It really comes off wrong. Look, I've been keeping darts for just over 6 years now. Surely, that makes me no expert but I've seen my fair share of the changes, trends and drama. Let's please try our best to keep it clean.

Now onto the main point. Hybrids/cross morphs... etc. First of, I do have three of the infamous, "Alanicits." Yes, I said it. It was handed to me as part of a focus group to foster these frogs. I need not delve into their inception, as there are lots of other venues for it. I took them in because they need a home; a far better solution to what others have presented. I've kept most forms of the Tinctorious group in my short stint a this, and still do. So what's my opinion on cross morphs? Indifference...

Truth of the matter is, people are going to do what they want with these frogs. Clearly, we can only present the idea of preservation. That's as far as we can take it. Who are we to tell people what to do, and how to do it. We take on the responsibility to care for these frogs and play the role of God. This is true, whether you choose to mix species or not. You determine where they live, how they eat, how much, and provide the best possible life for each one. And that's with the best intentions in mind.

Retrospectively, I can take this on a grand scale. If we can manage to step back, it's like migrating an aboriginal tribesman from Australia to New York City, providing him a home/apartment. Now he finds a melting pot of different "people" to meet and interact with. Now who's to tell him he cant find someone, fall in love, and start a family. He knows that he only represents a small percentage of people of that origin but cannot and will not find one in that side of the globe. Will his lineage be lost? Does he need to stop living life because there is a small chance of finding another aboriginal mate? Clearly, no. Why is his situation any different? It's all a matter of perspective. Dont tell me that there's no way humans will be extinct? and what really IS the "natural" order of things?

That might be far fetch but the mere idea is that WE took on the responsibility of caring for these animals and the most important goal is to provide them with a good life, now, today. If we can pave the way to promote their legacy by maintaining it within their morph, then great. Lets not forget that in one way or another, we've supported the idea of taking these animals from their own habitat. We've all taken our own selfish reasons for why we keep them as "pets". We're all guilty of it. One way or another you've promoted someone plucking these frogs from their natural homes. And sadly, it's not going to get any easier from here on out. Bottom line is, keep what you want, know what you have and be responsible for it. I just cant stand the "shame on you" attitude that people have against others in this hobby. Be happy that people share the same interest and promote each other. If you can convince someone that the best practice is to keep them separate, then wonderful. But for those who shun others who promote the hybrids/cross-morphs, "who do you think you are?"

In the words of Ice Cube... "Come on and check yo self before you wrickity-wreck yo self!"

Wow, my .02 cents just became a huge brain fart...

[Rich Frye]

I just wrote about two pages of what could have easily turned into a ten page explanation of exactly what makes mixes and hybrids bad for the hobby, the environment, and scientific study as a whole, but let me just put this out there instead.
Please tell me the benefits to the frogs, the hobby, or the environment (not one's personal interests) and I will then post all the known and potential detriments they cause.


My signature used to be,

Darts with parasites are analogous to mixed tanks, there are no known benefits to the frogs with either.

I'm putting it back on a few forums...


Rich

[Philsuma]

Scott,

I see what you're saying. Personally, I sometimes find the energy needed to continually debate and argue the mixing and breeding topic ad nauseaum, to be hard to maintain.

Kudos for Rich and others that keep at it. It is truly a "line in the sand" that needs to be defended.

If one day......we didn't care.....weren't vocal.....didn't bother to post against susch practices...then, they will win.

And it will be a sad, sad day in the hobby.

...and a veritable nightmare for a certain Family of Amphibians....

[PDF0323]

I see.
But there has to be two sides for there to be a fight, two sides for someone to win or loose. And as far as I am concerned, it is still your opinion. You, or no one else can control what these guys want to do with their frogs. And really, that's it. Small communities (ie. hobby communities), like society at large, are made up of many different kinds of people. We all derive our views from our experiences. We are divided on topics such as Politice, Religion, Money, Child Rearing, and now what we should do with our Poison Dart Frogs.
For now, I will be entertained by the arguing (which has got us nowhere). I will just continue to enjoy my frogs as pets and watch the hobby evolve. And when the war is waged, let me know. I will join your side. But what are your asking of your soldiers. I will gladly chime in with a "Yeah, what he said" and back you up.

It is truly a "line in the sand" that needs to be defended. (At all cost?)
If one day......we didn't care.....weren't vocal.....didn't bother to post against susch practices...then, they will win. (Win what? Phil, I am not saying not to be vocal and post in forums because everyone has a right to express their concers...but, when it comes down to it, it's still their opinion whether you think it's Right of Wrong)

BTW-You seem like a pretty cool guy, I hope your not getting upset because I don't adopt the "us against them" attutude. Hell, our country is at war for God's sake. I have much more to worry about.
Also, no one has addressed my Basti question. Is it ok or not to mix the color morphs?

S.C.O.T.T