[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

Bryan,
I asked for you to go through the exact quarantine procedures. This is something I have posted on many times and is found in quite a few of my posts around the forums. But I have yet to read what your process is. One of the reasons I ask is that you state verbatim;
" As long as the same precautions are taken as when setting up a single species enclosure health issues are not any different."
I would like to know exactly what "precautions are taken" by you. More than slightly ambiguous. No? The new frogger who asked initially would probably also like to know about quarantine also...I hope this simple request is not misconstrued as "a negative environment", rather a legitimate question, not yet answered. To PM you would exclude anyone else who aslo wishes to know about your system. No PMs needed.

I really had not other questions for you. The rest of my post was simply pointing out incorrect information. The pointing out of incorrect information should also absolutely not be taken as "a negative environment" ( especially for those who are in some sort of schooling , and get tests back that are other than perfect...) rather a situation which should be taken advantage of to keep/make our frogs as healthy as possible.

Rich

Again Rich,
I have answered your question numerous times. If you are still unclear on my practices shoot me a PM.

Your pointing out of incorrect information lies upon your inability to tell the complete set of facts and only give out information that is in favor of your opinion. There are no additional health risks associated with mixing frogs of different species as opposed to a single species that is due to diseases if the frogs are:
1. Bought from a dealer/breeder/supplier that is reputable and takes percautions and has procedures to maintain and deliver healthy frogs
2. Quarantined and test any new frogs to ensure #1, like you said, 3 clean fecals from a knowledgable vet
3. Visually observe your frogs. Aggression happens in mixed tanks as it does in single species tanks. The myth that aggression is not as an irrelevant issue in single species tanks is appalling since almost all tanks are setup with juveniles of unknown sex. Aggression is as much of a concern in a single species tank as it is in a mixed tank.
4. Be prepared to remove a frog. Have a back up quarantine tank ready for any emergency removals. Sick frog, mean frog, etc.

Do to the lack of honesty in regards to mixing by certain individuals many have had to attempt by trial and error. It certainly would have been better for the frogs if people like you would not hide the truth to enhance your own agenda. Keeping frogs blood lines pure is your choice. Us mixers simply want an enjoyable mix of frogs in a single enclosure rather then several small enclosures. Thanks to you and a few of your buddies I have been helping set up a couple mixed tanks each week for the past several months by the request of members that are tired of the negativity. With your continued help of bringing this topic into discussion the numbers of us mixers will continue to grow. I thank you.

Any further communication needed on this topic for you can and will be done through PM just as all other members are willing and capable of doing.
Have a pleasant day,
Bryan

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

Again Rich,
I have answered your question numerous times. If you are still unclear on my practices shoot me a PM.

And, again, I don't see why posting your quarantine procedures to the public is a bad thing. You have not posted them anywhere I have read...

Originally Posted by jellyman

Your pointing out of incorrect information lies upon your inability to tell the complete set of facts and only give out information that is in favor of your opinion. There are no additional health risks associated with mixing frogs of different species as opposed to a single species that is due to diseases if the frogs are:
1. Bought from a dealer/breeder/supplier that is reputable and takes percautions and has procedures to maintain and deliver healthy frogs

Since I can't "tell the complete set of facts", please answer my questions. They are not difficult ones.
How , exactly do you know if a breeder is reputable? The very most diseased frogs I have ever received came from one of the 'biggest names/reputable breeders".
I'll answer that question for you , if you don't mind. Testing rather than simple looking at a frog. Three consecutive clean fecals is the standard, as you agree to. This practise is not in your procedures though. Is it? I gave you a free set of fecals , run by my brother, and you complained about the cost of shipping . So I know none of your frogs have run through the bare minimum which you profess is par...Can you explain that one?
You can not tell the health of your frogs by one test alone. Therefor you have absolutely no idea if you have a reputable dealer or clean frogs. This is COMPOUNDED when different species, with potentially more disease are mixed.
The pros know it.
The scientists know it.
Now you know it.

Originally Posted by jellyman

2. Quarantined and test any new frogs to ensure #1, like you said, 3 clean fecals from a knowledgable vet

See above mention of not practising what you preach about three clean fecals...

Originally Posted by jellyman

3. Visually observe your frogs. Aggression happens in mixed tanks as it does in single species tanks. The myth that aggression is not as an irrelevant issue in single species tanks is appalling since almost all tanks are setup with juveniles of unknown sex. Aggression is as much of a concern in a single species tank as it is in a mixed tank.

As I mentioned in a recent post in this thread, most of us do not even like to mix into the viv two female tincs (same local) or two female leucs (same local) so I'm not sure where you get the idea anyone is saying that same species aggression does not happen. I have pointed to examples of me removing a female leuc due to heavy aggression.
The problem is when you exponentially add to potential aggression by adding not only one extra female to the jumble, but four, five, or twenty. How many females did/do you have in that large viv? So, while most experienced froggers are concerned about odd female sex ratios, you seem to think the idea is to add more species?

Originally Posted by jellyman

4. Be prepared to remove a frog. Have a back up quarantine tank ready for any emergency removals. Sick frog, mean frog, etc.

Yes.

Originally Posted by jellyman

Do to the lack of honesty in regards to mixing by certain individuals many have had to attempt by trial and error. It certainly would have been better for the frogs if people like you would not hide the truth to enhance your own agenda.

Now here's is where you have stepped over the line. If you do not have the mental tools to answer my simple questions, that's you problem. Point out one lie or truth I have hidden. You are a sad individual.

Originally Posted by jellyman

Keeping frogs blood lines pure is your choice.

And the majority appreciate keeping lines pure. In fact there are a number of networks set up just for that. You won't find 'Mutt Ancestry.com' for your darts.

Originally Posted by jellyman

Us mixers simply want an enjoyable mix of frogs in a single enclosure rather then several small enclosures. Thanks to you and a few of your buddies I have been helping set up a couple mixed tanks each week for the past several months by the request of members that are tired of the negativity. With your continued help of bringing this topic into discussion the numbers of us mixers will continue to grow. I thank you.

I'm sure the cream of the crop is just flocking to you for help. Good on you. It is quite a feather in your cap.

You have yet to point out errors, lies, or hidden truths by me. I can/have pointed out a number of errors in your posts. I think it just says a lot when you post one thing and do another. You do not run a quarantine as you post you should. Is this a 'do as I say, and not as I do' thing? Or are you trying to say that now you listened to what I have been writing for years and you find that not only the shipping expense for fecals is OK, but the cost of the vet running them is also something you are accepting.? Because I can site recent posts by you that say you don't even want to pay for mailing them out, even when the fecals are free...



The one common thread that seems to happen with most 'mixers' is that they like to do things their way. Many like to cut corners and will not listen to the experienced froggers who have been there before. I state this as simply as I can to be understood by absolutely anyone capable of reading.
If you do not quarantine fully and completely, you do not know the state of health of your frogs.
If you do not know the health of your frogs, you can not assume they are OK by simple visual inspection.
If you mix frogs with uncertain health status from different areas of the world the potential of cross contamination is greater than that of single local/species frogs.
The simple fact that one's frogs have not dropped dead instantly from mixing or not testing is not an example of success. These frogs are supposed to have a capacity of living for decades. Not months, not years, decades.

I am not the first to point out these facts , nor I am the most experienced/successful frogger to agree with them and put it into daily husbandry use. I just seem to need to type it out more for some than others...

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

And, again, I don't see why posting your quarantine procedures to the public is a bad thing. You have not posted them anywhere I have read...

Read the post again. I believe I did post them

Since I can't "tell the complete set of facts", please answer my questions. They are not difficult ones.
How , exactly do you know if a breeder is reputable? The very most diseased frogs I have ever received came from one of the 'biggest names/reputable breeders".

You can never be 100% sure that is why I stated that I agreed with you on having fecals done

I'll answer that question for you , if you don't mind. Testing rather than simple looking at a frog. Three consecutive clean fecals is the standard, as you agree to. This practise is not in your procedures though.
Again, read what I posted. I agreed that three clean fecals should be n the procedure


Is it? I gave you a free set of fecals , run by my brother, and you complained about the cost of shipping . So I know none of your frogs have run through the bare minimum which you profess is par...Can you explain that one?
I can certainly explain this to you again , I purchased my frogs many years before I even knew forums like this were available and did not know of having fecals done or even where to get them done. Heck, I did not even have internet in my apartment at the time. At this time my frogs have been together without any illness or death for close to 10 years(12 years is considered to be normal lifespan on average of a dart frog). Lucky, certainly. I took you up on your free fecal that cost me $20 in O/N shipping fees and it came back clean. Considering the frogs have been togehter this long with no illness or death and are breeding I feel it unnecessary to spend additional money testing. If/when I decide to produce frogs I will test the offspring
[/u][/u]


You can not tell the health of your frogs by one test alone. Therefor you have absolutely no idea if you have a reputable dealer or clean frogs. This is COMPOUNDED when different species, with potentially more disease are mixed. Again, this is not true. If the frogs are properly tested before being introduced you are not creating any more of a health risk then if you were adding together frogs of the same species

As I mentioned in a recent post in this thread, most of us do not even like to mix into the viv two female tincs (same local) or two female leucs (same local) so I'm not sure where you get the idea anyone is saying that same species aggression does not happen. I have pointed to examples of me removing a female leuc due to heavy aggression.
The problem is when you exponentially add to potential aggression by adding not only one extra female to the jumble, but four, five, or twenty. How many females did/do you have in that large viv? So, while most experienced froggers are concerned about odd female sex ratios, you seem to think the idea is to add more species?
Again, the issue here is that almost ALL setups are placing multiple juvinile frogs together so if aggression is a concern then it is as much a concern with single species setups.


Now here's is where you have stepped over the line. If you do not have the mental tools to answer my simple questions, that's you problem. Point out one lie or truth I have hidden. You are a sad individual.
This is easy. The facts are that mixed enclosures are not detrimental to the frogs and that the so called experts will tell you this is fact. What is detrimental to the frogs is setting up enclosures that are not properly designed, not checking the frogs health prior to introduction, and individuals like yourself that are motivated only by their own ego and agenda.




And the majority appreciate keeping lines pure. In fact there are a number of networks set up just for that.
This is the biggest misrepresentation of the truth yet. Most hobbiest that keep frogs are in it simply for the enjoyment. They like to build vivariums, they like to have a little piece of the rainforest in their homes. The networks you speak of that represent the purists represent a very very small fration of the the frog community a a whole. It may represent those on dendroboard but that is a very small slice of the dart hobby.

You won't find 'Mutt Ancestry.com' for your darts.
You will soon.

I'm sure the cream of the crop is just flocking to you for help. Good on you. It is quite a feather in your cap.
I wear it proudly.

You have yet to point out errors, lies, or hidden truths by me. I can/have pointed out a number of errors in your posts. I think it just says a lot when you post one thing and do another. You do not run a quarantine as you post you should. Is this a 'do as I say, and not as I do' thing? Or are you trying to say that now you listened to what I have been writing for years and you find that not only the shipping expense for fecals is OK, but the cost of the vet running them is also something you are accepting.? Because I can site recent posts by you that say you don't even want to pay for mailing them out, even when the fecals are free...

I'm not sure you have actually read any of this. I have not bought any new frogs since setting up my enclosure to have a need to quarantine new animals. I do suggest to all those that are getting new frogs that they should. I actually have found a local vet that can perfrom the fecals that I reference people to. I am picking up 5 new leucs this weekend(not for my mixed tank) that will be tested.


The one common thread that seems to happen with most 'mixers' is that they like to do things their way. Many like to cut corners and will not listen to the experienced froggers who have been there before.This is NOT true and yet another example of your propaganda. Mixers that do the research are probably more aware of how to set up a proper enclosure then most that throw a single species pair in a 10g tank. The hobby as a whole whether it is a mixed tank or a single species tank is riddled with people who do not do the research, throw their frogs into a non suitable setup and then start posting that they need help because their frogs are dead or dying. This is a black eye for any hobby.

I state this as simply as I can to be understood by absolutely anyone capable of reading.
If you do not quarantine fully and completely, you do not know the state of health of your frogs. Agreed
If you do not know the health of your frogs, you can not assume they are OK by simple visual inspection.Agreed
If you mix frogs with uncertain health status from different areas of the world the potential of cross contamination is greater than that of single local/species frogs.Only if they have not been tested and/or treated. Mising untested of the same species is just as a potential healt risk
The simple fact that one's frogs have not dropped dead instantly from mixing or not testing is not an example of success. These frogs are supposed to have a capacity of living for decades. Not months, not years, decades.This is simply an overstatement. While there have been frogs in captivity that have reached 17-20 years old, these are the exception. The standard average age is accepted at 12 years. Like any living organism some will die early some will live longer but the mean age is accepted to be standard

I am not the first to point out these facts , nor I am the most experienced/successful frogger to agree with them and put it into daily husbandry use. I just seem to need to type it out more for some than others...

The only real truth is that the die hards against hybrids think that by misinforming the community about keeping mixed tanks is beneficial to there cause because if there are no mixed tanks then there are no hybrids.

---------- Post added at 01:54 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:38 PM ----------

Originally Posted by Kermit

Hey everyone

I have three leucomelas frogs in one viv and there about a year old. I recently fond a pet store that had a couple of azureus. I wanted an opinoin on mixing one artazureus and three bumblle bees? The leucomelas that i have do very well together and dont fight also tank size is the exo terra " 24" x 18" x 24".

Since your thread is getting a bit hijacked by Rich I thought I'd try to get it back on track a bit. In my opinion your tank may be a bit small to add any additional frogs. Maybe an upgrade to a 55 or 75 gallon setup?? I always enjoy building new viv's!! Always looking for an excuse to start a new one.
good Luck
bryan

[Rich Frye]

I put this out there.
Simply decide on your own. Search "mixing", "hybrids" and the like and read through the forums.
Note who is against mixing and hybrids (not mutually inclusive, but absolutely more so than single locals...) and then note who is pro hybrids and pro mixing. You should be able to make up your mind about the pros and cons by who writes what, and exactly what they have accomplished in the hobby.
Some people know just enough to be dangerous.
And some care about where the hobby is headed, and where it ends up...

[Rich Frye]

I'll throw some other examples of why it is not great to mix species/locals that would not normally even meet in the wild.

There are many, many examples of people from one part of the world coming in contact with people from another part of the world and shortly thereafter wiping out the indigenous population. People , humans, same species. Different locals. These non-indigenous people brought the disease they had become either immune to or resistent to a people (local) which was not fortunate enough to have the ability to fight off said disease.

There are many viruses, fungi, and bacteria that animals become either immune to or build up a tolerance or resistance to, if given enough time. Or, they may be lucky and be born with immunity.
In the previous posts I had mentioned that three clean fecals was a bare minimum starting point for testing. Fecals can find quite a bit of things from protozoa to worms to even bacteria. But there is plenty fecals will not find.

The testing needed for viruses to be both found and understood pertaining to dart health are all but none-existent. The testing for most bacteria is not done by fecals. The testing for most fungal infections is not done by fecals.

To round out my statement that mixed darts from different parts of the world are more likely to cross contaminate can be simply understood ;

I have a carrier dart with a virus, but not showing signs of illness, possibly due to resistance, immunity, ect.. Testing for said virus does not exist. It has not been an issue with that local of darts...yet...
I have a carrier dart from a totally different part of the world with a bacteria. Testing for said bacteria is only used when showing signs of illness. No signs, possibly due to resistance. It has not been an issue with that local of darts ...yet...
I have a carrier dart with a fungus...get the picture?

Now, I'm going to mix all three darts which have lived long happy lives on their own. What would the expected outcome be with this absolutely (can site example of similar occurences...) possible situation be? Dead frogs. All of these frogs went through separate quarantine. They all went through more fecals than most froggers send out. They all were watched for months on end. They all ate super duper . Active, happy, clean fecalled frogs from around the world. Dead.
This would not be possible if all three species were from the same local.
QED

Now, since I have pointed out a few cons of mixing for the health of the frogs, I wonder if anyone can point out any pros of mixing for the health of the frogs?

[Philsuma]

Just gotta clarify before I take the time to wade in here....

Did Jel just call Rich and his buddies dishonest? Liars even?

Did he cite arguable instances of said "dishonesty" in this thread (haven't really read it in it's entireity btw) ?


If so, I think we may have to investigate this claim.......

[BrianD]

Not that this post is anywhere near as in depth or passionate as the previous posts, but what I can tell you is that being a "Absolutely NON_MIXER" myself (except in the case of raising young, i.e. 1-3 months in communal temp tanks and only on frogs that have been tested) you will find that most serious hobbiest's who care about their frogs and where they came from/lineage will and do keep either a list or a mental note of "mixers" or "pro-mixers" and would not only never purchase/trade/sell frogs to/from you but would also avoid any body you closely associate with like the plague. I understand most people are not looking at the sales aspect of it, but the fact of the matter is that eventually you will have too many frogs via offspring and want to either sell or trade them for new frogs or pocket cash and anybody who is not a total newb will never even consider dealing with you. I have waited months to purchase frogs that were previously available by someone labeled (by myself, not the hobby in general) as a "mixer", but passed because I would not support their ideals and could not trust that they were in fact bred to our hobby standards (how do we know they are not cross breeds/mutts?).
I just held a So. Cal Dendrobates Society meeting where more than 30 local frog enthusiasts attended and I can say 100% that not a single one condoned a mixed adult tank. For a newb it's hard to understand, but when you have put a few years or more into the hobby (100%, not just kept a frog alive for a while) you will see that much of the advanced part of the hobby is who you know and how they perceive you, not just how much money you have. If you don't believe me, try finding a couple lehmanni or saddle back histo's. They are out there, and someone has successfully bred them but I guaranty they will not sell them to someone who mixes species regardless of how long you have been in this hobby. Sure you may be able to find some blue jeans, sylvaticus or histrionicus that were recently imported and the seller is just trying to make their money back (even then I bet they give priority to experienced, capable hobbiests) but the non importable, rarer morphs will be off limits.
Plain and simple, it's responsible husbandry. The beginner froggers urge to keep and raise any tads that may arise is too great to encourage anybody to put themselves in a position to raise hybrids that can be unidentifiable and detrimental to the hobby as a whole.
Just my .02

BTW, Rich and I have had our disagreements in the past (well, 1 at least) so please don't think I am one of his die hard supporters (Not a shot at you Rich, I do respect you and what you stand for in the hobby) but he does raise a valid point in the majority of his posts and I would strongly doubt that anybody with a history and dedication to this hobby and the frogs are asking anybody to build them a multi species viv. First off they could do it themselves if they wanted to. 2nd, if they can't build a vivarium than they have not been very involved, have they???

[Philsuma]

Hi Brian,

Nice post. That meeting sounded like it was excellent. Our recent MADs meeting on the East coast had about 30 board member hobbyists.....pretty cool.

All the advanced hobbyists do things and perform husbandry methods that NEVER get published or see "air time".

Smaller than ideal enclosures sizes is one good example.

Why oh why would an advanced hobbyist want to continually post something like.....blah blah .....I have raised and bred hundreds of adult tincs and pumilio in 10 gallon fish tanks. They are just fine. Use em. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Have fun. It's YOUR hobby. They are YOUR frogs. Don't listen to those "other" people who lie and say you need a bigger tank.

ALL of these frog forums are a PRIMARY breeding ground for the entry level or beginning hobbyists. They look to postings and help from members as gospel and it is the DUTY of every advanced member to try to help them and give sound advice. EVERYONE can tell the new members around these parts. I'll give you a hint how.

They ask " Is it ok to mix species or morphs"? "I wanna make a mixed species tank/cage"

When they are new, the universal answer should be NO. With experience and success, they may gravitate to a different path further down the road, when it's appropriate. Then you won't see them asking those questions as they will have already collected, compiled and weighed enough information to proceed on their own.

[Rich Frye]

Now, since I have pointed out a few cons of mixing for the health of the frogs, I wonder if anyone can point out any pros of mixing for the health of the frogs?

---------- Post added at 10:18 AM ---------- Previous post was at 09:55 AM ----------

Originally Posted by Philsuma

Just gotta clarify before I take the time to wade in here....

Did Jel just call Rich and his buddies dishonest? Liars even?

Yes.

And no, he obviously can't point out posts where I lie about mixing (or anything else for that matter) . It's just easier to suggest a conspiracy theory about how I want everyone to keep healthy , known species frogs than it is to post any positive health benefits to the frogs from mixing...
Go figure.

[BrianD]

Hey Phil,
It was an awesome meet, 50/50 with experienced hobbiests and new comers. I made sure that all of my frogs and materials were out in a way to make sure that no newb could look and say "See, he does it, why can't I?". I 100% agree with you about these forums being the first real step and first genuine place for people to find information on these frogs and many, if not most people begin with an idea in their heads and look for anybody who can give them support regardless of how bad the advice may be. I did it when I started. Fishing for someone who had experience to give the ok on my mixed species viv. Luckily I have very respected, experienced keepers near me that I can now call friends and they kept me in the right direction.
The reason some of the advanced keepers don't air all of their practices is simple. Monkey see, monkey do. Once you have had the experience working countless hours/days/years with these frogs than you will have a strong enough idea of what you are doing. Even then, the best practice is to not flaunt it or advertise specifically for the reason of what it can and will do to the beginners in the hobby.
Just simply answering a mixed thread question with something along the lines of "well, it could be done if" or "if it's done correctly" gives the wrong impression to anybody getting started and should be avoided at all costs. Eventually they will know how to properly care for their animals and will do as they see fit without having to ask for the public's stamp of approval.

Rich, it's pretty obvious that you will never get a straight answer to your question. There is no answer other than NO! There will never be a way to show that keeping frogs in less than ideal conditions that mimic their natural environment is in anyway beneficial to the frogs. Usually, for those who think it is beneficial to the people who are looking at them, it is short lived and you end up staring at sickly, skinny stressed out frogs that often times spend their time in hiding up until their ultimate downward spiral to death. For the most part, there are no benefits for anything or anybody involved, period.

I typically stay out of these conversations only because arguing, bickering and hiding behind a keyboard on the internet is IMO worthless wasted time. Occasionally I spout off, usually at 1 in the morning when I'm on a good buzz, and only when I hope to get a point across to an OP.

Also, I know this thread is a bit old. I have a suspicion that Kermit is pretty well informed by now and on the right track