[evolvstll]

[quote=quaz;3146]dart frogs have such a rich diversity of physical traits and i, for one. Would like to explore the possibilities of what color mutations could be made.

I know its not all 'PC' and nice but I'd rather buy a new frog than spend the time and money testing for desease. really, they're just frogs , with a exponensial reproduction rate to where a few loses or frogs with hidden ailments won't hurt the hobby or population of captive frogs.
QUOTE]

Playing mad scientist, prior to that maybe review Bio 101 on what a mutation is?
Wow what a concept, disposable frogs? or did I miss some sarcasm?
Either way the respected froggers in the hobby (with more than 10 years) do not condone the mixed practice, while all those that do have far less........................see a trend?

[quaz]

It was quite dissapointing when I introduced a panamanian farm raised auratus to a few other frogs and it whiped out everythig. That was a good lesson. So now I'm a bit more carefull.

I look at it like ornamental fish or coral, or plantlife. How is one more or less disposable than the rest? In my opinion if I'm not going to care about cutting roses or killing insects or killing animals for food why would I care more for a frog that I'm putting into a glass container for my amuzement? My Opinion. You judge right or wrong. There is far more wrong in the action because of the offense aroused than in the action itself. So from how I see it, it would be better to keep my animal husbandry practices to myself in this crowd.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by quaz

It was quite dissapointing when I introduced a panamanian farm raised auratus to a few other frogs and it whiped out everythig. That was a good lesson. So now I'm a bit more carefull.

OK, so you introduced a frog that did not go through proper quarantine , I assume.
How exactly are you "more careful" with the mixed tanks? How exactly do you quarantine now? How do you test for cross contaminants, when there is no all-encompassing tests?

Originally Posted by quaz

I look at it like ornamental fish or coral, or plantlife. How is one more or less disposable than the rest?

They may be no more or less "disposable". Sentient , alert, intelligent CITES animals , which are not accepted as feeders, are rarely thought of as "expendable", be they fish, frog, or dog. But if they need to be killed, it's probably not the most ethical approach to let them die of nasty disease from lack of quarantine...

Originally Posted by quaz

In my opinion if I'm not going to care about cutting roses or killing insects or killing animals for food why would I care more for a frog that I'm putting into a glass container for my amuzement?

You see no difference between grass...insects...darts... dogs...and humans then?
The line is simple. These frogs are smart enough , and usually long lived enough to learn from. Their mating, caring for tads, calling, and overall activity is much more complex than other animals you may not wish to put on the "expendable" list.

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

OK, so you introduced a frog that did not go through proper quarantine , I assume.
How exactly are you "more careful" with the mixed tanks? How exactly do you quarantine now? How do you test for cross contaminants, when there is no all-encompassing tests?



They may be no more or less "disposable". Sentient , alert, intelligent CITES animals , which are not accepted as feeders, are rarely thought of as "expendable", be they fish, frog, or dog. But if they need to be killed, it's probably not the most ethical approach to let them die of nasty disease from lack of quarantine...




You see no difference between grass...insects...darts... dogs...and humans then?
The line is simple. These frogs are smart enough , and usually long lived enough to learn from. Their mating, caring for tads, calling, and overall activity is much more complex than other animals you may not wish to put on the "expendable" list.

You are truely on some fantasy island. If these frogs were truely thought of as non disposable then the shipments of frogs arriving dead from the wild would stop because there would be no demand. Breeders would ONLY sell to cover their costs and would only sell to those that walk to the tune of your standards. Certainly most of the folks that join a website based on this hobby personally feel differently but that accounts for such a small percentage of the actual frogs in circulation. And you got it right, frogs are no different then grass, insects, dogs, and humans. They are all exploited, self motivated hybrids, and then they die or are killed. Most every human on this planet could die tomorrow and the ones that are left would not even know the difference. Life would go on.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

You are truely on some fantasy island. If these frogs were truely thought of as non disposable then the shipments of frogs arriving dead from the wild would stop because there would be no demand. Breeders would ONLY sell to cover their costs and would only sell to those that walk to the tune of your standards. Certainly most of the folks that join a website based on this hobby personally feel differently but that accounts for such a small percentage of the actual frogs in circulation. And you got it right, frogs are no different then grass, insects, dogs, and humans. They are all exploited, self motivated hybrids, and then they die or are killed. Most every human on this planet could die tomorrow and the ones that are left would not even know the difference. Life would go on.

So as to waste as little time as possible;
I've said it before, my opinion has not/will not change, you are a sad individual who does not 'get it'. Period.

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

So as to waste as little time as possible;
I've said it before, my opinion has not/will not change, you are a sad individual who does not 'get it'. Period.

Your opinion should not change. The purpose of these frogs for you is a commitment to keep the genes true. Well, mostly. I guess if this were truely a commitment to the frogs then you would be giving away frogs to repuatbale breeders to advance the breeding success rather then selling them for profit.

So are you Mr Roarke or Tattoo? Da plane, Da plane!!! There are probably some pretty cool frogs on Fantasy Island.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

I guess if this were truely a commitment to the frogs then you would be giving away frogs to repuatbale breeders to advance the breeding success rather then selling them for profit.

What side of Dumb Street did you grow up on?
First, I do give away lots of frogs. Many, many more than you do. Second, if there is not $$$ to pay for the frogs' upkeep , there are no frogs. I produce only top quality frogs (another thing you can not say) and get them only to qualified froggers. You will never be on that list. Never.

Go back to Dendro and do some much needed hand holding.

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

What side of Dumb Street did you grow up on?
First, I do give away lots of frogs. Many, many more than you do. Second, if there is not $$$ to pay for the frogs' upkeep , there are no frogs. I produce only top quality frogs (another thing you can not say) and get them only to qualified froggers. You will never be on that list. Never.

Go back to Dendro and do some much needed hand holding.

Top quality is determined by the purchaser. A lot of hobbiest are more then happy with healthy frogs and are less concerned with lineage and the possible fake name associated with them. They do not need to be frogs that cost $300+. Expensive is not the equivalent of quality. (and I'm not saying in any way that you do not have quality frogs or that you misname your frogs, but there are breeders and importers that do). I will not have any problem selling my frogs when the time comes. I already have many in line with money in hand if a new variation comes out of the water.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

Top quality is determined by the purchaser.

QUALITY???!!!






---------- Post added at 03:53 PM ---------- Previous post was at 02:52 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jellyman

Top quality is determined by the purchaser.

Why? Does the purchaser have a lab in their house and is able to accurately assess all the darts' state of health? Or is the purchaser (in your case) trying to dodge a bullet by not testing or quarantining?
Most people use a yardstick of beauty ( hard to see a beautiful frog when 12 others are jammed on top of it...), health (you know not the state of health of your frogs, as you admit) , interaction and natural activity (see my Jammed in" reference) and breeding ( you have produced zero froglets in 12 years. Fail). But, in this case 'fail' is a good thing for about 99.9% of the caring hobby. We don't want your mutts around us, i.e. , in our hobby.

Originally Posted by jellyman

Alot

no such word...

Originally Posted by jellyman

hobbiest are more then (THAN, IT"S SIMPLY "THAN", NOT THEN ) happy with healthy frogs and are less concerned with lineage and the possible fake name associated with them.

Try to understand this because it is as simple as the use of 'a lot' and 'than' in your previous sentences.
YOU DO NOT KNOW THE HEALTH STATE OF YOUR FROGS. YOU CAN NOT KNOW THE HEALTH STATE OF YOUR FROGS FROM THE ONE SINGLE SOLITARY FECAL EXAM I PAID FOR FOR YOU A YEAR AGO. YOU NEED THREE CONSECUTIVE CLEAN FECALS TO UNDERSTAND WHAT IS GOING ON. AT LEAST. I KNOW THIS THREW YOU FOR A LOOP A YEAR AGO WHEN I GAVE YOU FREE SERVICE, BUT YOU SAY YOU GET IT NOW. LET ME SAY IT AGAIN THOUGH...YOU DO NOT KNOW THE HEALTH STATE OF YOUR OWN PERSONAL FROGS. IT IS IMPOSSIBLE FOR YOU TO GUESS AT IT.
Now, it may blow your mind, But there are a lot, a lot, a lot more froggers who actually care about the real state of health of their frogs, where they came from, and feel they are anything but expendable. You may not fall into this category, but we all need our lower , lower tier in our interests. You sir fill out the spot nicely.
And, my frogs not only have real names but they also have real local data. I see your untested , faked named, mixed tank Cobalt and raise you ...most of my collection.

Originally Posted by jellyman

They do not need to be frogs that cost $300+. Expensive is not the equivalent of quality. (and I'm not saying in any way that you do not have quality frogs or that you misname your frogs, but there are breeders and importers that do). I will not have any problem selling my frogs when the time comes. I already have many in line with money in hand if a new variation comes out of the water.

You mean those $300 expendable frogs. I mean, they are expendable, are they not? Let's see how quick you come up with site local Uyama Rivers, Grannies, BJs , Robalos, yah, real expendable.
The quality check has been mentioned. I produce frogs that have known locals, have been medically checked to my furthest extent, breed and act as natural as any CBs you will find out there.
Your frogs lay on top of each other , have not been fully tested, do not produce offspring, and look like they have been planning an escape for some years now. Maybe some already made it.

KEEP YOUR MUTTS TO YOURSELF. NOBODY WANTS THEM, OTHER THAN A LOWER LOWER TIER COMPATRIOT OR TWO...POSSIBLY...

[jellyman]

Another classic Frye rant and the circling motion of credibility comtinues.

Rich does an exceptional job at not posting all the facts. Let me explain. Rich offered to pay for the first fecal that his brother performed. The fecal was a mass collection of all the frogs and came back clean. The test was not actually free. I paid $18 to overnight frog terds to his brother. So yes, I saved $18 on the first exam but paid $18 to have them mailed. I verified with his brother that since the sample came from a source containing 17 frogs that the likely hood of them being infected was slim but not 100%. I then asked my vet that I have used for my chameleon, boas, and tortoises if he could perform the fecals on the dart frogs. Guess what, Rich's brother is not the only vet in the country capable of performing these test. And my vet only charges $15 and there is no overnight mailing charge for me. So I spent $45 to do 3 additional test in one month increments. So actually I do know my frogs are clean.

Next Rich claims my frogs are not breeding or producing. Fact is that I never entered this hobby to produce frogs. I never pulled aggs to raise. Simple fact of the matter is that the eggs produced over the years were destroyed by the other frogs before they could develop. Due to Rich's only avenue to discredit my enclosures WAS that the "frogs have not produced offspring" I have been inspired to start pulling eggs and raising tads. Fact, I should have 3 tads coming out of the water hopefully within the next few weeks if all goes well. This is all new to me so I can only say that I hope I am raising the tads properly. Fact, I am now pulling on average 5-8 fertilized eggs per week. Fact, about half of those eggs are successfully morping into tadpoles. Fact, tadpoles have sprouted back legs. Fact, I pulled 5 more eggs 2 nights ago. Fact, all "possible" current tads/frogs are already spoken for.

Fact, most people do use the yardstick of beauty to measure the quality of a frog. I'm not sure how this enhances your arguement. Most people have no idea of what the frogs naturalistic behaviors are and most enclosures do not even remotely resemble the frogs naturalistic environment. Fact, most breeders do not test all their frogs. Most breeders do not test at all. At best, a good breeder will do spot testing. An honest breeder will inform you that it would be to costly to test every forg. Take this even further. MOST buyers do not test their frogs. MOST buyers hope they have done their research and hope they are buying clean frogs froma reputable breeder.

Locale data at best is faith. Faith that these mystery locales even exist and if they do exactly where?? Most locale data is the name of the closest village or town or stream or whatever. What direction from that name? How many miles from that name? What other frogs are in the "naturalistic" range of the locale data? You have taken the word of whomever imported these frogs that the locale data is accurate.

This classic quote from Frye sums up his inability to grasp reality:
"Your frogs lay on top of each other , have not been fully tested, do not produce offspring, and look like they have been planning an escape for some years now."

17 frogs in a 6'x3'x30"high vivarium hardly lay on top of each other. The photo Rich likes to post is less then a 12"x12" section of an enclosure during feeding time when the frogs do come together as a group to eat. Typically I do spread the food out but to get a picture with them all together I spot feed on occassion. Again the frogs have not only been tested once by his brother with a clean test but also 3 seperate tests by a local vet. And thanks to the inspiration given to me by Rich I have been pulling eggs for the last 3 months and am happy to say that I now have tads that have popped their back legs and will hopefully be out of the water soon. So for those of you that are against hybrids you have Rich Frye to thank for giving me the inspiration I had not previously had to raise any frogs.

Rich, I hope you continue to produce beautiful frogs. I hope you continue to stay true to your passions. I hope one day you find a way to interact with people that disagree with you in a civil mannor.

And you will probably find words like "alot" or some other possible typo. Please feel free to point these out.