[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

Another classic Frye rant and the circling motion of credibility comtinues.

Rich does an exceptional job at not posting all the facts. Let me explain. Rich offered to pay for the first fecal that his brother performed. The fecal was a mass collection of all the frogs and came back clean. The test was not actually free. I paid $18 to overnight frog terds to his brother. So yes, I saved $18 on the first exam but paid $18 to have them mailed. I verified with his brother that since the sample came from a source containing 17 frogs that the likely hood of them being infected was slim but not 100%. I then asked my vet that I have used for my chameleon, boas, and tortoises if he could perform the fecals on the dart frogs. Guess what, Rich's brother is not the only vet in the country capable of performing these test. And my vet only charges $15 and there is no overnight mailing charge for me. So I spent $45 to do 3 additional test in one month increments. So actually I do know my frogs are clean.

Next Rich claims my frogs are not breeding or producing. Fact is that I never entered this hobby to produce frogs. I never pulled aggs to raise. Simple fact of the matter is that the eggs produced over the years were destroyed by the other frogs before they could develop. Due to Rich's only avenue to discredit my enclosures WAS that the "frogs have not produced offspring" I have been inspired to start pulling eggs and raising tads. Fact, I should have 3 tads coming out of the water hopefully within the next few weeks if all goes well. This is all new to me so I can only say that I hope I am raising the tads properly. Fact, I am now pulling on average 5-8 fertilized eggs per week. Fact, about half of those eggs are successfully morping into tadpoles. Fact, tadpoles have sprouted back legs. Fact, I pulled 5 more eggs 2 nights ago. Fact, all "possible" current tads/frogs are already spoken for.

Fact, most people do use the yardstick of beauty to measure the quality of a frog. I'm not sure how this enhances your arguement. Most people have no idea of what the frogs naturalistic behaviors are and most enclosures do not even remotely resemble the frogs naturalistic environment. Fact, most breeders do not test all their frogs. Most breeders do not test at all. At best, a good breeder will do spot testing. An honest breeder will inform you that it would be to costly to test every forg. Take this even further. MOST buyers do not test their frogs. MOST buyers hope they have done their research and hope they are buying clean frogs froma reputable breeder.

Locale data at best is faith. Faith that these mystery locales even exist and if they do exactly where?? Most locale data is the name of the closest village or town or stream or whatever. What direction from that name? How many miles from that name? What other frogs are in the "naturalistic" range of the locale data? You have taken the word of whomever imported these frogs that the locale data is accurate.

This classic quote from Frye sums up his inability to grasp reality:
"Your frogs lay on top of each other , have not been fully tested, do not produce offspring, and look like they have been planning an escape for some years now."

17 frogs in a 6'x3'x30"high vivarium hardly lay on top of each other. The photo Rich likes to post is less then a 12"x12" section of an enclosure during feeding time when the frogs do come together as a group to eat. Typically I do spread the food out but to get a picture with them all together I spot feed on occassion. Again the frogs have not only been tested once by his brother with a clean test but also 3 seperate tests by a local vet. And thanks to the inspiration given to me by Rich I have been pulling eggs for the last 3 months and am happy to say that I now have tads that have popped their back legs and will hopefully be out of the water soon. So for those of you that are against hybrids you have Rich Frye to thank for giving me the inspiration I had not previously had to raise any frogs.

Rich, I hope you continue to produce beautiful frogs. I hope you continue to stay true to your passions. I hope one day you find a way to interact with people that disagree with you in a civil mannor.

And you will probably find words like "alot" or some other possible typo. Please feel free to point these out.

It's really simple to answer this huge bloated post .



I simply do not believe you got your frogs tested again.

Simply because people do not test their animals does not mean they should not test.

My local data comes from university professors who did the collecting... Care to call them liars too "Jelly"?

One picture is worth 1000 words. The pic speaks for itself. That's where you were at , 10 years in...

KEEP YOUR MUTTS OUT OF OUR HOBBY. SOME OF US CARE.


AND NOW TO ADDRESS THE REST OF YOUR BLATHER...

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

It's really simple to answer this huge bloated post .



I simply do not believe you got your frogs tested again.

Simply because people do not test their animals does not mean they should not test.

My local data comes from university professors who did the collecting... Care to call them liars too "Jelly"?

One picture is worth 1000 words. The pic speaks for itself. That's where you were at , 10 years in...

KEEP YOUR MUTTS OUT OF OUR HOBBY. SOME OF US CARE.


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Typical response from the Frye guy.
I really do not care that you do not want my frogs in the hobby. Our hobby does not only contain individuals with your opinions. Please keep your negativity out of our hobby. It is because of you that I will continue to put my frogs into the hobby. Your locale data may come from the actual collectors but almost all of the locale data currently floating around is at best unreliable and is based on importers making a buck.

"I simply do not believe you got your frogs tested again"
As if I really care if you believe me. How do you get through doorways with such a large head?

"Simply because people do not test their animals does not mean they should not test"
You are correct. It is just a fact that it is the minority of frog owners that actually do take the precaution of testing and quarantining. Why do you think there are so many "oh my frogs are dying" threads.

"My local data comes from university professors who did the collecting... Care to call them liars too "Jelly"?"
Good for you. Most of us in the hooby do not have the connections to buy directly from the people that have collected the frogs and either do most of the breeders. Therefore, the locale of most frogs is taken on faith and cannot be deemed as reliable.

"One picture is worth 1000 words. The pic speaks for itself. That's where you were at , 10 years in..."
And gets 1000 compliments. I thank you again for helping influence others to setup mixed enclosures. Why are you not able to post the rest of the pictures. Afraid they will not help your cause. You have access to all of the pictures.

"KEEP YOUR MUTTS OUT OF OUR HOBBY. SOME OF US CARE"
Like you screaming through a computer monitor is going to make anyone take you seriously.

[Rich Frye]

Jelly,
I'm sure you are thrilled in thoughts of people thinking of you as the guy who introduced a bunch of nasty mutts to the hobby (after 12 years...), most everyone else is just going to simply continue to think of you as F'ed up ...that , and just sad...

[jellyman]

Originally Posted by Rich Frye

Jelly,
I'm sure you are thrilled in thoughts of people thinking of you as the guy who introduced a bunch of nasty mutts to the hobby (after 12 years...), most everyone else is just going to simply continue to think of you as F'ed up ...that , and just sad...

Yep, after 12 years of not feeling any need to produce frogs you successfully gave me the motivation to do so.
I thank you. Raising tads has been an enjoyable experience.

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

Yep, after 12 years of not feeling any need to produce frogs you successfully gave me the motivation to do so.
I thank you. Raising tads has been an enjoyable experience.

Now try it with something someone (other than you lower rungers) will actually want.

---------- Post added at 01:03 PM ---------- Previous post was at 12:57 PM ----------

Originally Posted by jellyman

bla , bla, bla, bla ,bla...bla, bla...bla...bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla, bla...bla...

Which i read as...





---------- Post added at 01:07 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:03 PM ----------

MIXING = SIMPLICITY. SIMPLICITY =...



---------- Post added at 01:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:07 PM ----------



You want to be in the upper right blue cone, not the lower left red cone Jelly.

[jellyman]

Nice pictures. Now do you have anything of value to add???

[Rich Frye]

Originally Posted by jellyman

Nice pictures. Now do you have anything of value to add???

Hold on, no need to get your...






Since you can not comprehend Engrish, I figured lots o' pretty pics would be more in your comfort zone. As opposed to fact, where you struggle.





Rich

---------- Post added at 01:51 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:47 PM ----------

Lots of pretty, pretty, soooooothing pics for you Jelly...











---------- Post added at 01:55 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:51 PM ----------

[jellyman]

Still waiting for something of value that pertains to this discussion.

Insults are really not necessary. Can you discuss a topic in length without using insults?

Nice frog pics. You should try mixing some of those together. They would make for an excellent display.

[Rich Frye]

Warned you more than once about calling me a liar Jelly. Calling someone a liar in some circles is considered more than just a simple insult. I really hate a sub-par hypocrite...
Now all you get is pretty pics. The rest has been said already.

[Knoxter]

As the admin for the site, I was planning to address Jellyman and Rich Frye individually via pm, but after careful consideration, I decided there was value for the rest of the members of the community to hear what I have to say.

First.....If this entire thread is a friendly "jokey joke" between friends, then stop reading now. And I will butt out.

However, if you feel like I do, and it's a little more than that, read on.


Now, to share your views and express your opinions here on the site is one thing, to debate your perspective is another, but to flat out insult someone for what they believe, in my opinion, crosses the line here. There are too many examples throughout history that depicts how people have been mistreated and outcast for their beliefs. I won't allow that here. So, whether we like it or not, SOCIETY EVOLVES and CHANGE IS INEVITABLE!

We SHOULD all be able to express ourselves in an online community. Sometimes we "throw jabs" at each other, but we cannot get carried away. I wonder if you were in the same room, would this "come to blows." I created these forums so that members of the Dart Frog community we could "Teach, Learn, and Share" their experiences with each other. Not to bash, insult, or degrade each other because of their beliefs! Whether the same of different.

I think as adults, with different views on a specific topic, at some point you have to "agree to disagree". If you haven't realized it yet, many folks are polarized on a wide variety of subjects, and now, if someone were to read this entire thread, it would appear that interbreeding of dart frogs ranks right up there with the seriousness of the "Health Care" debate.

One of my first threads I created when I started the site back in May of last year was "How do you feel about hybridizing dart frogs " That was my attempt to allow anyone who read the thread to know the climate of "This forum" when the topic of dart frog hybridization or interbreeding came up. It would have been just as easy for either of you to post your opinion or share you view with the person who created this thread, then refer them to the earlier thread, for them to post their view on the topic. Instead, you chose to argue your point and prove who was right, and who was wrong.

I will end by saying, "the hardest thing to change, is the human mind." I hope no one here is trying to change the other person's mind. You probably won't!

To Kermit, if you haven't realized it by now, it is crystal clear that the dart frog community is divided on the topic of hybridization/ interbreeding of dart frogs. I hope there is enough information here to derive your own opinion about the topic. When and if you do, please feel free to post your view HERE

Regards,

Marc Knox