What is spindly leg syndrome or SLS?

Leuc Skywalker · 05-29-2009, 10:50 PM

I saw that Josh and Mereck were talking about spindly leg syndrome or SLS in another thread, and seeing as tho I am not sure what the hell that is, I thought I'd ask you guys for a little more clearification first.
I was able to look up the definition online, which is:
Spindly Leg Syndrome: a suspected nutritional myopathy seen in frogs and toads; after metamorphosis, the forelimbs are underdeveloped.

That definition still didn't paint a crystal clear picture for me as to what SLS actually is or how it looks in PDF's. I still have never seen a frog with SLS, so I wouldn't know what to look for if I had a frog with it or if I bought a frog with SLS.
Anyone have any pics of frogs with SLS or can give me a little more insight when it comes to SLS in PDF's

Thanks

Luke

socaled · 05-31-2009, 04:23 AM

It's actually really sad because some of these frogs are put down because they would not be able to live a normal and healthy life.... This is the best way I can explain it to you it's like a frog having legs with half the bone mass it should have.... Some people say that SLS is from nutrition because of what the parents ate... It could also be how the tadpole was raise.... And don't forget hereditery because some frogs can get it from parents... I guess you can say they have frog osteoporosis... Hope this helps.... Members hope you can post on this thread it will help many that don't understand what this is... Thanks

-Angeles

Lance · 05-31-2009, 05:46 PM

Sls is a very odd and how and why it happens. I just had a few tricolors come out of the water and one was fine but its brother or sister came out with sls on its front legs. No one really knows why the frogs come out with it. Some say its due to water temps, nuitrition of the parents when they laid the clutch, what the tad ate while it was in the water. It could be all factors above or just plain old ladies luck wasnt with the tads.

joshsfrogs · 05-31-2009, 07:40 PM

There is a lot of anecdotal evidence surrounding SLS. We really don't have a clear picture of the cause(s) yet. There has been some speculation that it is hereditary, but the frogs it tends to affect the most (the vent group, etc.) tend to be aggressive breeders which could point to nutritional deficiency since SLS usually happens towards the beginning of breeding or after sustained breeding.

I would guess it is nutritionally caused which could be exasperated by other suspected causes (i.e. the use of charcoal with the tads, growing tads at too high a temperature, young breeders, under-supplemented adults, lack of variety of the food the tads get, etc.).

But, due to the chance there could be heredity inclinations, we aggressively cull (probably 1-3 in 100 froglets) through not helping froglets out of the water and culling frogs that don't lift their head/chest off the ground.

For more information, I would make it to a national frog show and sit through Ed K.'s talk. He also will sell copies of the presentation (at least he did in the past).

Paul.Naturascape. · 01-13-2010, 04:05 AM

hey froglets kind need some time to get up with they front legs...? cuz my froglets they are like week old or something and they are always laying down and they legs kind look limp i'm afraid they have that SLS leg syndrome or its just cuz they are kind limp for some time after they morph..i will put some pics up tomorrow so you guys can take a look at they legs.

Rich Frye · 01-13-2010, 12:32 PM

...can't interpret the last post, but...
I tend to think it is a combo of a few things. I dealing with the number of frogs I have , I rarely see SLS, but have experienced it a few times. here is what I have come up with.
Heredity is quite possibly a factor. As Josh mentioned some frogs seem to have a genetic tendency more than others for SLS.
Food could also be a trigger(the trigger to a genetic predisposition) as some have experienced luck after switching to better food stuffs. But I think food is to a lesser degree than the last trigger.
Stress. Stress is what I have found to be a major trigger to SLS. The female being stressed either contributes to lesser quality eggs (most likely), or lesser quality egg feeding , or there is possibly a hormone released, or not released while the female is stressed.
I come to this conclusion from one of the few groups I have seen SLS in. My Robalo trio (2:1) were producing SLS froglets for about a year straight. They were in a 29 gallon hex with two males, one female. I don't like to move my frogs around a lot. So I waited until it seemed I had to move them. Once I moved the trio and removed the second male the SLS went away. Absolutely. There were no other variables other than the move to a much larger viv and a removal of the subordinate male. Food stuffs exactly the same. Air temps , exactly the same. Water temps for tads, exactly the same. The only variable was the larger viv and less stress.

An SLS froglet is very noticeable in that the front legs are very deformed and much smaller than they should be. Movement and the ability to sit up is greatly hindered. The issue with SLS is that it is not an absolute as an only deformation. There are times when froglets will morph with slightly deformed limbs and still get around well enough to live.This is not SLS. True SLS is usually a death sentence and froglets should be culled. It may be a bit tough at times to determine exactly what the deformity is, but if your frog can not sit up or move around to catch food, cull it. or it is doomed to a slow painful death.
I do not have any good pics of actual SLS. Sorry.

Rich

Paul.Naturascape. · 01-13-2010, 08:36 PM

hey Rich sorry that you could not interpret my last post it's my fault , I'm Brazilian and some times i do write English in a Portuguese way what is bad, but any way I hope that this time you will be able to interpret my post .........

my froglets they all are very weak and some of them are only able to stand up with one of they front legs,
and so my question was...... if they need some time to stand up with the front legs, but yeah you already answered my question any way ......thanks Rich !

...... sucks cuz all of them have the same problem with the right leg and for sure they all have got SLS for sure i do have some pics and i will post soon as I edit them.

Paul.Naturascape.

---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ----------

hey guys ....

take a look at my flickr I posted some pics of them froglets in there, I hope that these pics will help with something .

.......thanks !

Paul.Naturascape.

---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ----------

_MG_8749 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ----------

Flickr: naturascape's Photostream

---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

Rich Frye · 01-13-2010, 08:53 PM

No problem Paul. I was pretty much joking about the interpretation. You write ,and I am sure speak much, much better English than I Portuguese.
The pics came through blocked on my computer...

Rich

Paul.Naturascape. · 01-13-2010, 09:09 PM

lol........thats all good Rich !

but hey thats strange cuz pics are blocked here on my computer too, I was trying to post them directly here but I don't know how??

so yeah man you can go and look at them at my flickr profile ....

_MG_8770 on Flickr - Photo Sharing!

---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

Rich Frye · 01-14-2010, 04:59 PM

Definitely looks like a bone deformity. May be SLS. Does not look good.

Rich

05-29-2009, 10:50 PM	#1 (permalink)
Leuc Skywalker Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 42	What is spindly leg syndrome or SLS? I saw that Josh and Mereck were talking about spindly leg syndrome or SLS in another thread, and seeing as tho I am not sure what the hell that is, I thought I'd ask you guys for a little more clearification first. I was able to look up the definition online, which is: Spindly Leg Syndrome: a suspected nutritional myopathy seen in frogs and toads; after metamorphosis, the forelimbs are underdeveloped. That definition still didn't paint a crystal clear picture for me as to what SLS actually is or how it looks in PDF's. I still have never seen a frog with SLS, so I wouldn't know what to look for if I had a frog with it or if I bought a frog with SLS. Anyone have any pics of frogs with SLS or can give me a little more insight when it comes to SLS in PDF's Thanks Luke __________________ "I am your father!" 1.0.2 Luecs (Someone's calling)

05-31-2009, 04:23 AM	#2 (permalink)
socaled Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 350	It's actually really sad because some of these frogs are put down because they would not be able to live a normal and healthy life.... This is the best way I can explain it to you it's like a frog having legs with half the bone mass it should have.... Some people say that SLS is from nutrition because of what the parents ate... It could also be how the tadpole was raise.... And don't forget hereditery because some frogs can get it from parents... I guess you can say they have frog osteoporosis... Hope this helps.... Members hope you can post on this thread it will help many that don't understand what this is... Thanks -Angeles Last edited by socaled; 05-31-2009 at 05:03 AM..

05-31-2009, 07:40 PM	#4 (permalink)
joshsfrogs Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Owosso, MI Posts: 30 Real Name: Joshua Willard	There is a lot of anecdotal evidence surrounding SLS. We really don't have a clear picture of the cause(s) yet. There has been some speculation that it is hereditary, but the frogs it tends to affect the most (the vent group, etc.) tend to be aggressive breeders which could point to nutritional deficiency since SLS usually happens towards the beginning of breeding or after sustained breeding. I would guess it is nutritionally caused which could be exasperated by other suspected causes (i.e. the use of charcoal with the tads, growing tads at too high a temperature, young breeders, under-supplemented adults, lack of variety of the food the tads get, etc.). But, due to the chance there could be heredity inclinations, we aggressively cull (probably 1-3 in 100 froglets) through not helping froglets out of the water and culling frogs that don't lift their head/chest off the ground. For more information, I would make it to a national frog show and sit through Ed K.'s talk. He also will sell copies of the presentation (at least he did in the past). __________________ www.JoshsFrogs.com - Unsurpassed Quality and same day shipping! Everything you need in one store.

01-13-2010, 12:32 PM	#6 (permalink)
Rich Frye Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 172	...can't interpret the last post, but... I tend to think it is a combo of a few things. I dealing with the number of frogs I have , I rarely see SLS, but have experienced it a few times. here is what I have come up with. Heredity is quite possibly a factor. As Josh mentioned some frogs seem to have a genetic tendency more than others for SLS. Food could also be a trigger(the trigger to a genetic predisposition) as some have experienced luck after switching to better food stuffs. But I think food is to a lesser degree than the last trigger. Stress. Stress is what I have found to be a major trigger to SLS. The female being stressed either contributes to lesser quality eggs (most likely), or lesser quality egg feeding , or there is possibly a hormone released, or not released while the female is stressed. I come to this conclusion from one of the few groups I have seen SLS in. My Robalo trio (2:1) were producing SLS froglets for about a year straight. They were in a 29 gallon hex with two males, one female. I don't like to move my frogs around a lot. So I waited until it seemed I had to move them. Once I moved the trio and removed the second male the SLS went away. Absolutely. There were no other variables other than the move to a much larger viv and a removal of the subordinate male. Food stuffs exactly the same. Air temps , exactly the same. Water temps for tads, exactly the same. The only variable was the larger viv and less stress. An SLS froglet is very noticeable in that the front legs are very deformed and much smaller than they should be. Movement and the ability to sit up is greatly hindered. The issue with SLS is that it is not an absolute as an only deformation. There are times when froglets will morph with slightly deformed limbs and still get around well enough to live.This is not SLS. True SLS is usually a death sentence and froglets should be culled. It may be a bit tough at times to determine exactly what the deformity is, but if your frog can not sit up or move around to catch food, cull it. or it is doomed to a slow painful death. I do not have any good pics of actual SLS. Sorry. Rich __________________ Please enjoy Fryebrothersfrogs.com

01-13-2010, 08:53 PM	#8 (permalink)
Rich Frye Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 172	No problem Paul. I was pretty much joking about the interpretation. You write ,and I am sure speak much, much better English than I Portuguese. The pics came through blocked on my computer... Rich __________________ Please enjoy Fryebrothersfrogs.com

05-31-2009, 05:46 PM	#3 (permalink)
Lance Junior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Edmonton, Alberta, Canada Posts: 6	Sls is a very odd and how and why it happens. I just had a few tricolors come out of the water and one was fine but its brother or sister came out with sls on its front legs. No one really knows why the frogs come out with it. Some say its due to water temps, nuitrition of the parents when they laid the clutch, what the tad ate while it was in the water. It could be all factors above or just plain old ladies luck wasnt with the tads.

01-13-2010, 04:05 AM	#5 (permalink)
Paul.Naturascape. Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 9 Real Name: paul bastos	hey froglets kind need some time to get up with they front legs...? cuz my froglets they are like week old or something and they are always laying down and they legs kind look limp i'm afraid they have that SLS leg syndrome or its just cuz they are kind limp for some time after they morph..i will put some pics up tomorrow so you guys can take a look at they legs.

01-13-2010, 08:36 PM	#7 (permalink)
Paul.Naturascape. Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 9 Real Name: paul bastos	hey Rich sorry that you could not interpret my last post it's my fault , I'm Brazilian and some times i do write English in a Portuguese way what is bad, but any way I hope that this time you will be able to interpret my post ......... my froglets they all are very weak and some of them are only able to stand up with one of they front legs, and so my question was...... if they need some time to stand up with the front legs, but yeah you already answered my question any way ......thanks Rich ! ...... sucks cuz all of them have the same problem with the right leg and for sure they all have got SLS for sure i do have some pics and i will post soon as I edit them. Paul.Naturascape. ---------- Post added at 07:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 06:58 PM ---------- hey guys .... take a look at my flickr I posted some pics of them froglets in there, I hope that these pics will help with something . .......thanks ! Paul.Naturascape. ---------- Post added at 07:10 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:09 PM ---------- _MG_8749 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! ---------- Post added at 07:11 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:10 PM ---------- Flickr: naturascape's Photostream ---------- Post added at 07:36 PM ---------- Previous post was at 07:11 PM ----------

01-13-2010, 09:09 PM	#9 (permalink)
Paul.Naturascape. Junior Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: atlanta ga Posts: 9 Real Name: paul bastos	lol........thats all good Rich ! but hey thats strange cuz pics are blocked here on my computer too, I was trying to post them directly here but I don't know how?? so yeah man you can go and look at them at my flickr profile .... _MG_8770 on Flickr - Photo Sharing! ---------- Post added at 08:09 PM ---------- Previous post was at 08:07 PM ----------

01-14-2010, 04:59 PM	#10 (permalink)
Rich Frye Senior Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Chicago Posts: 172	Definitely looks like a bone deformity. May be SLS. Does not look good. Rich __________________ Please enjoy Fryebrothersfrogs.com

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