Organic Fertilizers - Page 3

jpg · 05-05-2009, 09:40 AM

I have used it as a spray but only on plants not in vivs and vivs with no frogs .

I do use the spray in the 12x12x12 that houses native salamanders though . It doesnt seem to effect them .

I forgot to mention that I mist heavily after watering the frog vivs with the solution . Its never harmed them but I like to make sure they have limited contact with it .

Knoxter · 05-05-2009, 11:23 AM

Salamanders skin is permeable like dart frogs skin. If it's safe for the salamanders, then I would bet it's safe for the frogs.

atlfrog · 05-05-2009, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knoxter

Salamanders skin is permeable like dart frogs skin. If it's safe for the salamanders, then I would bet it's safe for the frogs.

Well they should be.

"Scientific classification: Salamanders make up the order Caudata in the class Amphibia." LOL

JustinF · 05-30-2009, 02:03 AM

I know this thread is a bit old, but I thought I would dredge it up anyways. I have considered the use of organic fertilizers in an effort to replicate the quality of rainwater falling on the frogs and their surroundings in their natural environment.

A surprisingly high amount of nutrients is provided by falling rain. For example, at a site near Manaus, Brazil, rain brought three kilograms of phosphorus, two kilograms of iron, and ten kilograms of nitrogen per hectare annually.(Those numbers are from a report and some of the important ones for plant growth) If you further consider the nutrient acquisition strategies Epiphytes have evolved from symbiotic relationships with ants to basket shapes to catch fallen debris to harness the nutrients released at the debris decays, it is far more then a simple "let frog poo and dead feeders fertilize the plants". It's akin to feeding a child nothing but Kraft diner and calling it a satisfactory diet.

Rain water can contain all kinds of particulate pollution long before it hits the point of collection, which can also contribute forms of pollution, this is a whole discussion on it's own. I mention Epiphytes here because they are the ones you are concerned with feeding with water. Plants you have planted in various soil mixes so long as they contain nutrients are not really relevant atm.

So if you are like me, using some kind of filtered water, RO/DI or something similar, and do not have a full load of insects replicating the natural environment various Epiphytes come from, and you are not using rainwater collected from the Rainforest, your plants are more then likely in a nutrient limiting situation. That is if you even provided adequate lighting, which sadly screw in compacts are not.

I would love to find studies if there are any on the water chemistry or even basic water values of water sampled from Bromeliad axils in the wild, or even what the contents of the axil may be.

atlfrog · 05-30-2009, 09:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinF

I know this thread is a bit old, but I thought I would dredge it up anyways. I have considered the use of organic fertilizers in an effort to replicate the quality of rainwater falling on the frogs and their surroundings in their natural environment.

A surprisingly high amount of nutrients is provided by falling rain. For example, at a site near Manaus, Brazil, rain brought three kilograms of phosphorus, two kilograms of iron, and ten kilograms of nitrogen per hectare annually.(Those numbers are from a report and some of the important ones for plant growth) If you further consider the nutrient acquisition strategies Epiphytes have evolved from symbiotic relationships with ants to basket shapes to catch fallen debris to harness the nutrients released at the debris decays, it is far more then a simple "let frog poo and dead feeders fertilize the plants". It's akin to feeding a child nothing but Kraft diner and calling it a satisfactory diet.

Rain water can contain all kinds of particulate pollution long before it hits the point of collection, which can also contribute forms of pollution, this is a whole discussion on it's own. I mention Epiphytes here because they are the ones you are concerned with feeding with water. Plants you have planted in various soil mixes so long as they contain nutrients are not really relevant atm.

So if you are like me, using some kind of filtered water, RO/DI or something similar, and do not have a full load of insects replicating the natural environment various Epiphytes come from, and you are not using rainwater collected from the Rainforest, your plants are more then likely in a nutrient limiting situation. That is if you even provided adequate lighting, which sadly screw in compacts are not.

I would love to find studies if there are any on the water chemistry or even basic water values of water sampled from Bromeliad axils in the wild, or even what the contents of the axil may be.

This is very useful information. I am glad you decided to post this. Thank you!

JustinF · 05-30-2009, 08:12 PM

If you like that, you are going to love this....

Document title:
Rainfall chemistry composition in two ecosystems in the northeastern Brazilian Amazon (Amapá State)

Abstract:
The rainfall chemical composition in two Amazonian ecosystems, a terra firme forest (dense tropical rain forest) and the cerrado (savanna) are presented. Both areas are located in the northeast Brazilian Amazon (Amapá State). This study evaluated the statistical differences in the rainfall chemistry, as well as the deposition through rainfall, for each ecosystem. The chemical species evaluated in the rainwater were Na+, K+, Mg2+, Ca2+, NH4+, Cl-, NO3-, SO42-, Fe3+, Al3+, Zn2+, and Mn2+ for both ecosystems. Factor analysis for the terra firme ecosystem indicated that there is a significant difference between the dry and wet periods in the rainfall chemical composition, indicating a biomass-burning signature (K+ in association with Zn2+). High deposition of solutes, except for Mn2+ and Cl-, was also observed during the dry period. Comparison between the terra firme and cerrado rainfall chemistry showed statistical differences in concentration for the marine species (Na+ and Cl-) and for the soil dust species (Al3+, Fe3+, and Mn2+). The sea-salt and biogenic sources of chemical species in terra firme forest rainwater are equally important. The site nearer to the sea (cerrado) has rainfall chemistry dominated by species having marine origins. The terra firme forest also has rainfall chemistry dominated by marine origin species, although the biogenic and soil dust origin species are highly significant at this site. Also in the terra firme a biomass-burning signature was observed. The amount of sea salt deposited was more than 50% larger in the cerrado owing to its proximity to the shore.

So what does this tell us?

Rainwater falling on the Rainforest contains both macro and trace elements, and I am pretty sure the same rain falling on the plants is falling on the frogs. This is relevant because of the permeable nature of the frogs skin. One can assume that the frogs are absorbing elements and compounds through their skin, so what is the rain, is in them. We know this is possible because of the success shown dosing frogs's backs with calcium gluconate.

No studies have been done that I am aware of that discuss this issue, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the frogs acquire a certain amount of the minerals and vitamins they require from the rainfall through absorption. Add to that the fact they are known is soak themselves in water. What if they get more from soaking then just H2O?

In my opinion there is great potential to learn and possibly progress the state of the Dart Frog hobby if more open minded people would consider these fact and we had a whole lot less "You will kill your frogs with chemicals" regurgitation. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there was a correlation between water quality and SLS.

I would really love to get that full article.

Thoughts?

JustinF · 06-09-2009, 04:22 AM

Bump for Merek or anyone for that matter... Study should be here soon!

Philsuma · 06-09-2009, 08:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustinF

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there was a correlation between water quality and SLS.

Yes, that has been established.

Knoxter · 06-09-2009, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Philsuma

Yes, that has been established.

Hey Phil,

Established where? Please refresh my memory. Iv'e heard that too, and I may have read it somewhere before, but really I don't remember where. No trying to be funny...I like to know the sources of information.

Thanks

JustinF · 06-10-2009, 04:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Knoxter

Hey Phil,

Established where? Please refresh my memory. Iv'e heard that too, and I may have read it somewhere before, but really I don't remember where. No trying to be funny...I like to know the sources of information.

Thanks

+1, I've looked high and low and still can't find anything other then the standard don't use ferts in your Vivs. As a matter of fact I couldn't find one thread where people posted their experiences controlling water quality and any positive effects. The study did arrive today, I will get on it asap.

Addition: I've spoke to Mark Pepper regarding this theory I have and he is also curious to see the results. He's noticed some things regarding SLS, but didn't have any experience doing anything I mentioned himself. I guess I could call around to all the big breeders and get some opinions on the subject, but I would venture to say Mark has seen/bred more frogs then pretty much anyone in the hobby so I am really giving weight to his opinion. So please do direct me to the thread etc cause I would rather not re-invent the wheel.

05-05-2009, 09:40 AM	#21 (permalink)
jpg Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Webster MA. Posts: 92	I have used it as a spray but only on plants not in vivs and vivs with no frogs . I do use the spray in the 12x12x12 that houses native salamanders though . It doesnt seem to effect them . I forgot to mention that I mist heavily after watering the frog vivs with the solution . Its never harmed them but I like to make sure they have limited contact with it . __________________ Red vents , Imitator, Intermedius , Leucomlas , Auratus , Mint Terribilis.

05-05-2009, 11:23 AM	#22 (permalink)
Knoxter Administrator/SiteOwner Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: USA Posts: 432 Real Name: Marc Knox	Salamanders skin is permeable like dart frogs skin. If it's safe for the salamanders, then I would bet it's safe for the frogs. __________________ Marc My frogs- Vanzolini, El Dorado (ong&gold), Cayo de Agua, Almerante, Gold Dust, Yuris, Imis, Inters, Taras, O Lamasi, Iquitos Vents, Varis, SI. I appreciate everyone here. Without you, there would be no DFF. Thank you for your support.

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05-30-2009, 02:03 AM	#24 (permalink)
JustinF Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Port Moody BC, Canada Posts: 34 Real Name: Justin Fournier	I know this thread is a bit old, but I thought I would dredge it up anyways. I have considered the use of organic fertilizers in an effort to replicate the quality of rainwater falling on the frogs and their surroundings in their natural environment. A surprisingly high amount of nutrients is provided by falling rain. For example, at a site near Manaus, Brazil, rain brought three kilograms of phosphorus, two kilograms of iron, and ten kilograms of nitrogen per hectare annually.(Those numbers are from a report and some of the important ones for plant growth) If you further consider the nutrient acquisition strategies Epiphytes have evolved from symbiotic relationships with ants to basket shapes to catch fallen debris to harness the nutrients released at the debris decays, it is far more then a simple "let frog poo and dead feeders fertilize the plants". It's akin to feeding a child nothing but Kraft diner and calling it a satisfactory diet. Rain water can contain all kinds of particulate pollution long before it hits the point of collection, which can also contribute forms of pollution, this is a whole discussion on it's own. I mention Epiphytes here because they are the ones you are concerned with feeding with water. Plants you have planted in various soil mixes so long as they contain nutrients are not really relevant atm. So if you are like me, using some kind of filtered water, RO/DI or something similar, and do not have a full load of insects replicating the natural environment various Epiphytes come from, and you are not using rainwater collected from the Rainforest, your plants are more then likely in a nutrient limiting situation. That is if you even provided adequate lighting, which sadly screw in compacts are not. I would love to find studies if there are any on the water chemistry or even basic water values of water sampled from Bromeliad axils in the wild, or even what the contents of the axil may be.

05-30-2009, 08:12 PM	#26 (permalink)
JustinF Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Port Moody BC, Canada Posts: 34 Real Name: Justin Fournier	If you like that, you are going to love this.... Document title: Rainfall chemistry composition in two ecosystems in the northeastern Brazilian Amazon (Amapá State) Abstract: The rainfall chemical composition in two Amazonian ecosystems, a terra firme forest (dense tropical rain forest) and the cerrado (savanna) are presented. Both areas are located in the northeast Brazilian Amazon (Amapá State). This study evaluated the statistical differences in the rainfall chemistry, as well as the deposition through rainfall, for each ecosystem. The chemical species evaluated in the rainwater were Na+, K+, Mg2+, Ca2+, NH4+, Cl-, NO3-, SO42-, Fe3+, Al3+, Zn2+, and Mn2+ for both ecosystems. Factor analysis for the terra firme ecosystem indicated that there is a significant difference between the dry and wet periods in the rainfall chemical composition, indicating a biomass-burning signature (K+ in association with Zn2+). High deposition of solutes, except for Mn2+ and Cl-, was also observed during the dry period. Comparison between the terra firme and cerrado rainfall chemistry showed statistical differences in concentration for the marine species (Na+ and Cl-) and for the soil dust species (Al3+, Fe3+, and Mn2+). The sea-salt and biogenic sources of chemical species in terra firme forest rainwater are equally important. The site nearer to the sea (cerrado) has rainfall chemistry dominated by species having marine origins. The terra firme forest also has rainfall chemistry dominated by marine origin species, although the biogenic and soil dust origin species are highly significant at this site. Also in the terra firme a biomass-burning signature was observed. The amount of sea salt deposited was more than 50% larger in the cerrado owing to its proximity to the shore. So what does this tell us? Rainwater falling on the Rainforest contains both macro and trace elements, and I am pretty sure the same rain falling on the plants is falling on the frogs. This is relevant because of the permeable nature of the frogs skin. One can assume that the frogs are absorbing elements and compounds through their skin, so what is the rain, is in them. We know this is possible because of the success shown dosing frogs's backs with calcium gluconate. No studies have been done that I am aware of that discuss this issue, but I wouldn't be surprised at all if the frogs acquire a certain amount of the minerals and vitamins they require from the rainfall through absorption. Add to that the fact they are known is soak themselves in water. What if they get more from soaking then just H2O? In my opinion there is great potential to learn and possibly progress the state of the Dart Frog hobby if more open minded people would consider these fact and we had a whole lot less "You will kill your frogs with chemicals" regurgitation. I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if there was a correlation between water quality and SLS. I would really love to get that full article. Thoughts?

06-09-2009, 04:22 AM	#27 (permalink)
JustinF Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Port Moody BC, Canada Posts: 34 Real Name: Justin Fournier	Bump for Merek or anyone for that matter... Study should be here soon!